Do you guys think it might be possible to be SOOO good at magic and psychology/hypnosis...etc... that you could actually control someones mind into believing whatever you like? Example: What if you could have a spectator vividly "see" a coin in your hand, only your hand would be empty. The coin would exist only in the spectators mind, and the magician could create these images in the people's minds at will.

It's already known that branches of knowledge such as hypnosis and neuro-linguistics programming can help immensely, just look at Derren Brown to name one.
But what if it was possible to take this to the next level?
Holy crap, I can already smell the possibilities.

Does anyone else believe this or something similar can be possible?
I for one, believe I might be able to do this if I'm secretly a vampire. If I'm not, however, it's still nice to dream.

Peter

I think it would only be possible if someone was on a hallucinogenic drug.


To be honest, sometimes when I don't get enough sleep stuff like that happens. Like a blue back might look red for a few seconds.
Sometimes I see the face of a card on a blank card.
Am I going crazy?...maybe; but I think I just need more sleep.

Slydini had a coin vanish in which he would show his hand to the spectator after lapping the coin, and then place the imaginary coin in his other hand, and show the first hand "empty." The audience found it hard to believe that he would show them an invisible coin, and would swear they saw it go into his other hand. This is a very effective thing when done well.

But I think you are talking of taking this to a level beyond that, and I suspect it is probably unworkable on that plane.

Thanks for your posts guys! Oh and Whit, that is kind of what I was reffering to, just trying to find methods where you can just hint at the fact that "a coin is still there." In my opinion , it is already quite apparent by now that magic ultimately happens inside of the spectators mind, so why not take advantage of that by raising the bar? Even if psychology doesn't allow us to reach our specific goals, I still feel these pillars of knowledge would be quite helpful at least for my magic.

Just my two cents.

Love this idea.

That Slydini technique works well. I saw Ryan Swigert do it with black sponge balls and he was wearing a black shirt:
With nothing in his hand he TOSSED the sponge ball that didn't exist from one hand to the other (across about 3 inches), and because you expect to see it and the fact that both the ball & his shirt were black, your mind made you think you saw it in transit!

People are much more gullible when they are tired, drunk, high or a 14-year old girl.

Diavo,
What about a tired, drunk, and high 14-year-old girl?
:)

Seriously, Tony Slydini used to state that, unless the magician believed what is happening (even if nothing was) then the spectator(s) wouldn't.

His exact words, in that wonderful accent: "You must gotta believe!"

Before rasing the bar, I think we need to clear the bar on the current height.

Hideo Kato

While suggestion can go a long way, the "ritual" of hypnosis, which is lacking in magical performances, limits us to some degree. And, even with adequate "training" of the participant, which can require considerable time, all but very few individuals have the natural inclination to respond quickly enough and in accord with the needed outcome of a specific performance item, to make it practical. So, we are left with somewhat smaller hypnotic accomplishments, usually to embelish an effect. Nevertheless, considering the lack of ritual,the need for an almost instant response without any training of the participant, and the built-in requirement what we suggest must be something that the majority of audience members can respond to, it is amazing what CAN be accomplished. Luke Jermay's work is a prime example. In his video Skullduggery, he has an audience member experience loss of abilities (memory), positive visual hallucinations, positive tactile hallucinations, etc. Not bad! And, as mentioned by Hideo, if we work on clearing the bar at this current height, we should do quite well.

Nicholas,
That's INSANE!!! I didn't know Luke Jermay was that crazy. WOW. Definitely going to check that out.

P.S. If anyone else has theories or sources on anything similar to this, post it.

Don't be thrown off by the term "hallucination." If a positive visual hallucination is equivalent to "seeing something that isn't there," then Twisted Palm qualifies. If a positive tactile hallucination is equivalent to "feeling something that isn't there," then The Burst Bubble Suggestion wherein the participant can "feel" the thought leave their mind, would qualify. Here's what someone with stage hypnosis experience could do - Have someone hallucinate a clock on the wall. Ask them to tell you what time the clock is set to. Then show (using a trusty NW) that you might have somehow gone beyond hypnosis to either predict the hallucinated time, or to influence the participant subliminally. Stage hypnotists are effective in selecting the best responders out of a group. With a fairly short training session, you could get someone to respond appropriately. But, with this kind of thing,what you end up with is a hypnosis show with a little mentalism thrown in...rather than a mentalism show with a little hypnosis thrown in.

Wow! There is so much to the world outside of magic...

Using methods I've picked up through the years by creators such as Kenton Knepper, I've had some incredible things happen. For instance, in the effect "The Ring" I once had a girl swear she watched it change color from blue to red to silver, and back to gold again. There was no lighting that could have done this and she was very skeptical before I even started.

I truly believe this kind of situation could one day be under our full control. There is so much that we haven't discovered yet through NLP and other methods yet to be invented, and I think it's foolish to close the doors to those possibilities.

Keep these dreams going!

-Christian

HI PETER, that is a theory that I worked on for years....only to have made it a proven theory.

See peter, I can convince a spectator 100 percent that I have a coin in my hand ...WHEN in fact it's "NOT".

This very method allows the spectator to see the coin in my hand.....100 percent. " I KID YOU NOT"

I would very much like to send you a tape of me doing this....please consider it a gift from me. Pm me your address, if you so desire.

I call this move THE SUV (SILVERS ULTIMATE VANISH)

anyone else who has not seen this and would like too, please feel free to pm me your mailing address as well. Please keep in mind this is a gift from me...MICKEY SILVER.

Everyones friend,
MICKEY

YOUR FRIEND,
MICKEY

Many magicians who believe that they are fooling their audience are, in fact, fooling themselves. You see, when you are young and perform mostly for friends and family, people tend to be nice to you and they tend to tell you that your're amazing. It's very easy to believe this kind of flattery. When you grow up and start performing for more critical audiences you're in for a rude awakening (even though some people never wake up). Much of the advice offered by "experts" should be taken with a grain of salt. Many people write about magic, only a few have extensive knowledge and experience. Don't believe everyting you read. Much of the "advanced" material is purely wishful thinking and self-delusion.

The human mind is complex, this goes without saying, but I said it anyway... why? A general and obvious statement such as that invokes several different reactions from people of differing personality types. Some people read it and are annoyed by its obviousness and uselessness, and will therefore disregard it and read no further. Some people get past the first part of the sentence, come to the utterly useless phrase, "this goes without saying", and become annoyed at that point. Some would read it and think it deep and insightful, while others would think it a pedantic and presumptuous statement of a young and naïve mind (I wish I was still young and naïve!) with little value. My point is that "fooling the mind", as it is described here happens on many levels, something as basic as a short series of words or an expression, used at an appropriate time, targeting a particular personality, to elicit a particular response is "fooling the mind".

How far this "fooling of the mind" can be taken is in direct proportion to a performer's understanding of the human mind, human nature, and the psychology behind motivation. Buttons are readily available to be pushed, but you have to know where they are, and in what order to push them.

Best,

Mike

The questions of mass hallucination, the reliability of results and methods for getting results are not new.

These issues have come up in mentalism as regards pre-show expectations, post-show retellings and some cued recall of displaced imagery. Likewise these same issues come up in psychology as applied to witness testimony.

Please keep in mind that the human eye is not a camera and what you see is not what you perceive and even that is not what you believe.

Being very specific now, what would you like to accomplish?

Extraordinary Delusions and the Madness of Crowds...

Best, PSC

First of all, I'd love to hear some specific examples of what's "self-delusion."

Secondly, this is killing imagination on all sides of magic. Instead of labelling these priceless theories delusional, we should promote the exploration of psi-based techniques that would bring magic to a level never before imagined. With our recent discoveries of what suggestion is capable of, I don't doubt one bit that someday soon mental magic will be on such a higher level (when used by trained professionals), that what we see as "magic" today will be a mere bit of trickery.

If you still disagree strongly with the possibility of such methods, please don't ruin it for someone who might be very much affected by your words. Who knows, they could be the one to discover these principles.

After all, isn't magic all about philosiphical wonder?

-Christian

Re: ...we should promote the exploration of psi-based techniques that would bring magic to a level never before imagined...

You are welcome to expend your resources in any endeavor you find of interest, provided it does not destroy the property or person of others. Each of us has this option. What we do as a group is discuss our findings.

I welcome any findings as regards the connectivity between internal reality as created by thought and the external reality others can measure. Science is about things one can measure.

May your thoughts reflect reality.

I can't think of any way we currently need to worry about destroying the property of others right now. With the exception of abused hypnosis, this isn't something that is a big threat. I would never promote this if it was for the purposes of hurting others. That's why I specified being a trained professional. Obviously, this field is much more serious than traditional magic.

Thank you for understanding, Jonathan. I always enjoy your input.

-Christian