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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts |
Tim - wanted to mention quickly that I respect your work immensely and the post here is important.
If the tube IS just a knock off, and not an improvement in any way, then I agree with you that it should not be purchased. But.... this is a slippery slope. If the guy who first manufactured a set of cups and balls were allowed to be the only one to ever sell it, where would we be? Or what about linking rings. Should we have put a moritorium on construction after the original? One size. One price. Don't anyone make another set, lest you steal the idea. You are correct when you say most magicians want to do the right thing. Its just hard most of the time to see where a method came from and who owns what. Often the creators and manufacturers themselves can't agree. |
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Tim Ellis V.I.P. Melbourne, Australia 1234 Posts |
Fair enough. Though I do think the "look" of the trick should have been changed so potential purchasers don't get confused and think they are buying a MAK product.
I guess the issue is: When does a trick become "public domain"? Maybe Strat-o-sphere is old enough? Pen through Anything certainly isn't. But how old does a trick need to be before everyone else can feel free to bring out their version?
www.MagicUnlimited.com
www.timellismagic.com Visit our online shop for instant downloads and ebooks https://shop.timellismagic.com/ Blog - www.magicunlimited.typepad.com |
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niva Inner circle Malta (Europe) 2970 Posts |
Just as I thought. Only assumptions!! Very informative indeed.
Yours,
Ivan |
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Harv Inner circle I'm building a fence with 1127 Posts |
Duane Laflin sells something similar called Priority Ball (looks quite nice). No vanishing box with his (thank goodness), however you do get a special hanky that does the vanish.
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tophatter Inner circle connecticut 3328 Posts |
Speaking of RIP OFFS The bounce No bounce balls are now called BLUE BALLS !! Pretty funny ! the same effect only the balls are BLUE instead of black . Rip off or not I like the idea of blue Instead of black . Who ever saw a BLACK SUPERBALL.......... BLUE IS BETTER . I have to laugh whwen I hear BLUE BALLS HANKLEES has this advertised.
Tophatter. |
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Tyler_Magician Special user 509 Posts |
There is also another version of Stratosphere called Saturn Sphere sold on http://www.daytonamagic.com for $150. I have seen it in person and it looks really good and professional hence the high price.
-Tyler |
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magicinsight Inner circle 4291 Posts |
The picture of Daytona's site is not clear but from what I see, it does not look like it is worth $150.00 for this effect.
“Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits.”
—Hakim, Loreweaver |
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Tony S Special user New York 582 Posts |
Competition is two shops purchasing the same product from a distributor and competing to sell that product. There are many ways to compete in the marketplace, price being just one of them.
Ripping off someone else's original idea and producing it at a lower price is not competition - it is theft. The ethical thing to do is to purchase from the originator of the idea or effect - even if it costs more money. |
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts |
Joker tube is nicely made. The vanishing box is constructed and looks better than the MAK one.The tube gimmick is much more reliable too.
FYI - MAK also sells "knock off" items but I don't see anyone knocking them? |
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vankris New user Surrey 1 Post |
I think it is probably best to buy the original, though I made the mistake of not even thinking of this on a few tricks already. Now I am aware that there is an ethical issue here, and I plan to be more careful.
It is not like regular business. It is an issue that exists specifically in the magic community because it deals with secrets. People come up with an idea, and deserve to get credit, it used to be that way. If they sell for too much - don't buy their trick. Perhaps a good rule of thumb, so we don't go back to ancient Eqypt (IE cups and balls) is to allow for "competition" after the inventor is deceased. What do you think of that? Too drastic? Maybe, just maybe, too many people who don't really care about the trade are buying magic these days. |
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CWMoss Regular user 111 Posts |
At the begining of this thread, Tim Ellis said that Penguin Magic was selling the original STRAT-O-SPHERE by Mak Magic. They are now selling the Joker Tube even though the link I clicked on said,"STRAT-O-SPHERE by Mak Magic."
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
I am sure anybody can arrive at many justifications for prostitution, thievery, cheating on your wife of the tax man...in then end...if your honest with yourself, you still know it is wrong. All to gain a few bucks ( or thrills).
My question is...if all the props were never created in the first place...what exactly would Magic Makers line be comprised of? Think about it. Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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bobn3 Special user Wichita, KS 718 Posts |
Hey TopHat,
I guess it shows my age, but when superballs first came out, they ONLY came in black. Bob Phillips |
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Scott Horn Elite user Dallas, TX 417 Posts |
I agree on things as blatent as Strat-O-Sphere, but where is the philosophical line?
John Cornelius invented and markets 2 versions (functionally different) of the Pen Thru Anything. Along come others that work the same way and are also "ball point pens." Are these a rip-offs? Then along comes the Sharpie. It works the same, but it's a marker, not a ball point pen. Is this a rip-off? What about Bounce - No-Bounce balls. The magic community didn't invent, nor do they manufacture the balls. So is a new routine with the same prop a new product? What about sourcing a new "flavor" of the balls (Blue version) with the same, or no routine? Then, what about craftsman quality products. Several folks make Sucker Die Boxes, Cups & Ball sets and Chop Cups). Many are functionally identical, but made by different craftsmen with artistic differences. Are these "rip-off's" too? |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Wow, what a debate here.
Dove pan, cups and balls,chop cups, quarter go box, square circle, hand held square circle, chop cup, ring boxes, watch boxes, rising cards, card boxes, zombie balls, vanishing wands, himber rings, linking rings, passe bottles, color changing knives, mirror glasses, mult. billard balls, thumb tips, spirit slates, head dagger chests, lota vases, magic wands, coin Sh*lls, zig zag decks, fanning decks, coin matrix, crystal silk cylinders, ghost tubes, rice bowls, toppits, pulls, cigarette producers, close up mats, close up stations, crochetted balls, chop balls, ravens, marked decks,sure shot die boxes, paddles, sliding die boxes, crystal silk boxes, money plates, coin stacks, the List is endless. Ickle Pickle, Owens, Davenports, Gary Animal, RNT II, Magic Makers, Definative Magic, Johnson Precision Coins, Tannens, Magic Makers, Murphy's, Hocus-Pocus, Chu's, Uday, Hank Lee, Brett Sherwood, MaK. All manufacturers or Importers of magical goodies. Question is, who is in the right who is in the wrong? At RNT II we make cups, but my goodness, is Brett Sherwood and Owens copying us and ripping off our idea? Mr. Sherwood took cups to a whole prestigious level with his engraved cups. There are reasons for patents and reason for copyrights. If someone directly violates a copyright by duplicating a routine to the "T" then that is wrong. If someone takes a product with no copyright or patent and makes it just as good or better for less than that is a plus for those that can not afford a particular effect that has overhyped or carries a high price tag simply because the creators name is used, and you can't say that isn't happening, we see it all over the retail side of magic. Just because a particulars performers name is part of the effect does not justify an outlandisly high price tag, this is what drives other vendors to copy an effect and turn it out in overkill. I saw one effect that originally cost 99.00 which was more than reasonable, a well know mfgr. purchased the lot of the effects, slapped it in a fancy box, affixed thier name on it and jacked the price up over 500.00, same product in a nice box and a mediocre routine, gee wonder why there are others out there making the same effect now for 99.00 again. Every desinger, artist, craftsman and performer has the oppertunity to protect themselves with trademark registration, copyright and patent, if they opt not to do that, then they have left themselves wideopen for "Ripoffs" or "Copies". This is not my opinion, this is what would be argued in a court of law. I've been there once and it was enough to open my eyes to how important copyright is. Mr. Bill Palmer copyrighted his opening line to his show. Why? Because he didn't want anyone copying him. Bottom line, protect your intelectual property and your products, copyright, register your trademark and patent!
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
Jake,
You have a few valid points but let me make something VERY CLEAR that seems to get mushed in with the actual topic at hand. There are props that are CLEARLY "Public Domain" ( typically a prop which has been on the market for roughly 20 years and has been continued to be built and claimed by the originator/owner of rights ). Any prop which falls in this category is open for ANY reproduction from anyone. Your list was almost ALL old hat Public Domain ideas. The magic industry will only survive and thrive with fresh new ideas if respect is given to the creators. My beef is with the more contemporary effects in which the "Improved Versions" are SO CLOSE to the original it is almost laughable and quite pathetic. I can ASSURE YOU that I could take MANY existing ideas, which I persoanlly think are only halfway there, and RUN WITH IT making a actual TRUE new version, not ask permission and take the cash. Why do I NOT do this? Because I want the respect from the industry. I sleep better at night knowing I am actually contributing to the growth of magic...not my pocketbook. Actual case as example: "The Outhouse". My take on the "Chattery Teeth" by Seabrooke & Malloy. My "Outhouse" was so FAR PAST the original version that even I felt permission may not be needed...but I ASKED...and I paid a ROYALTY as it was due. I would have never created the "Outhouse" unless Seabrooke and Malloy lead the way. And now I have RESPECT and frienship to last a lifetime. This debate will never end but one thing I am sure of...the hacks will not be in the way too long. It just a matter of time. Take care, Chance Wolf Wolf's Magic
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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Mad Jake Inner circle All the voices in my head helped me make 2200 Posts |
Chance,
I couldn't agree with you more. I"m currently working on several old effects and have aquired permission and rights to reproduce the actual routines with the new version of the products as long as I give credit to the original creator. Your products are top of the line bar none. Your Outhouse is a beautiful piece as with all your products, you do them so well it's hard to improve on them and run with it...just kidding. I only wish that more creators put the time, effort and pride into the production of their items. With todays technology we can take effects so much further, a lot further than 20 years ago. With the aid of computers and sophisticated CAD programs we are now able to redesign cups to tolerances never even concieved long ago. Indeed we would not want anyone stealing our designs, patter etc and strongly believe in copyright, but to patent cups or any other product is a long costly legal process and when you do a bean count, it just doesn't add up most times. Thus leaving us vunerable to ripoffs or copies of our cups. One person wrote a request to me asking for custom engraved cup sets, while we will do this, the request was for a copy of a very well known set of cups on the market today. This gave me an idea, I wanted to see how much trouble it would be to copy the set of cups that the client requested. Within 48 hours we had a finished cup with the exact engraving as the competitor. I sat and looked at the cup I had engraved and thought how scary it was to so easily create a copy that most probally wouldn't recognized as a copy had I used the same cup schematics as the competitor. What I'm trying to get at is it not only takes an honost craftsman to respect the rights of others, but the buying public as well, if a person approaches a craftsman and requests them to make a copy of an effect,even if it's an improvement, they are no better than the person who is taking the ideas and effects from others. Ok, the end of my ramblings at 130am. I hope anyone that is seeking to recreate an effect will at least search out the originator and request permission, if you can not find the originator, ask here, maybe the effect is in public domain. Information is power! Jake
Licensed Steve Dusheck Manufacturer and distributor visit www.airshipmagic.com
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glodmagic Special user USA 501 Posts |
One of my favorite wooden effects marketed by Viking was severely damaged. The story as "how" is too incredible to discuss, Anyway I decided to purchase a knock off mainly to see how different the quality was. Not only was it terrible but exposed the effect by the very nature of the imperfections. Now that they make a Plastic version with bright toy packaging it will likely find it's way into every magic set.
This brings three other elements to knock offs. 1. It lowers the price so every "overnight wonder" will purchase then decide magic isn't for them. 2. A poorly made knockoff will expose the effect ruining the beautiful original forever. 3. When 1 and 2 mentioned above come into play you end up with a self exposing prop and an army of beginners running about in bars destroying the effect. I remember when the original floating bill and original ITR would kill. I remember a time when I carried the original and only pen thru bill and jaws would drop. I even remember when D'Lite (bought the first one that arrived at a shop) would truly amaze. It's not only the knock-offs but the Vegas and Mall kiosks that sell these everywhere for a day of novelty for the buyer at a disposable price. They toss them aside then whisper the exposure during a dinner party.
Remember ANY of your posts here can be Googled by your customers and Clients. Just entering your name in Google can bring up your negative comments that stay for years!
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alannasser Loyal user 213 Posts |
Quote:
All the money that the name brands spend on research and development means they need to charge more to absorb the costs. The generic brands simply reverse engineer to medicines and therefore can sell them much cheaper. This is a very bad example for making the point the author is trying to make. Brand-name pharmaceuticals are made by Big Pharma which spends more on marketing than on R&D. The price is high because these companies have a government-granted monopoly, which we call a "patent." When we are dealing with pharmaceuticals necessary to maintain or restore health, we should welcome generics. Should your access to health care depend on how much money you have? No industrialized country except the USA thinks so. And they all have healthier populations than we do. Best, Alan |
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