Makes me think...
With friends like that it makes it a bit easier to get 'better'/to become a better performer...

Not sure Bob Kohler has published his work yet, and Tim Conover has not published his work nor has Geoff Latta. Unless you are suggesting the guy approach them privately about their approaches to the trick, no idea why folks are mentioning unpublished works here. Seems unproductive to tease about material they can't get to. I recently read a very good handling and PRESENTATION of the trick, and if it were published, would recomend it. Sorry, it's not for public consumption yet. Yes, I wrote PRESENTATION, something that most versions of the trick I've seen and heard about are lacking. Just saying "Some dude fooled magicians with this trick 100 years ago..." is not much of a presentation.

R. Paul Wilson did publish something in 5x5 Scotland and I recall Mike Gallo did publish something on the trick as well. Actually a couple of somethings.

But where to start and to get a handle on the trick?

I suggest a careful study of the original, minus the fussy vanish sequence, and also a study of David Roth's approach. The guy said he's NOT a techie, so unless he's already gotten good with a holdout, the modern stuff that 'impresses' folks is not likely to be in his range for now.

For someone who truly wants to do this trick for a lay audience, I suggest starting at the table, and using the method for the coin squash (see Roth book) to vanish the pile of coins, and using something like my cylinder based switch to set the thing up. The effect would be a very clean looking vanish of the coins, and they wind up inside the cylinder. Just a suggestion for a way to get started.

For those who like to play and can already slide coins around or use Edge Grip, the approaches started by David Roth and carried on by Latta and then by Conover are good. For those who want to see how well some performers have adapted themselves to the Ramsay matmerial, or adapted the coin vanishes to suit themselves, sure... go see Carney and Conover, and if Geoff is on tour, definetely go see what he's up to. Hardly a place to start the process of DOING the trick though.

Bob, Tim, and Geoff have not published their work as far as I know either.

Bob Kohler claims that Tim is the Master when it comes to this routine.

As Jon indicates, David Roth does have a workable version of the routine in print. If you are already familiar with his Hanging Coins and Flash Production you pretty much have the coin work learned already.

The major thing I don't like about Roth's routine is that it must be done seated, I prefer to work standing. However, if you imploy some of the methods created by others to retrieve and ditch coins while standing (not using the lap), Roth's routine could be re-worked to be done standing.

One of the things I do like about Roth's contribution is its straighforwardness. The vanish and reproductions are done with coins in the hands, with no wand.

I still think that those wanting a published version closest to Ramsay, but more streamlined should get the Carney thing.

The big drawback on Roth's beautiful routine though, is it requires lapping. Bummer!

Dan, Dan, Folks,

I did mention my one handed vanish and the use of Hoo coins. hint hint Even a pull or a judicious use of the kick move from the portable hole routine would manage that last coin in the vanish sequence. It's just one coin that you don't need to reproduce or make use of again in that routine. nudge nudge know what I mean?

Hope this helps

I agree Jon, it is a managable issue to re-work it standing.

[quote]On 2004-11-24 06:13, Daegs wrote:
"...I should also mention I'm not a *huge* coin guy, and things like rattle gimicks, many edge palms and the harder things are a bit out of my reach, so are any of the versions streamlined with no really hard sleights?

I'd much rather use some psychology and misdirection then any super hard sleights or gimicks, so I was hopping for a good 4coin/stack version that didn't contain any super-challenging sleights but still went in depth into the psychology of the routine.

SO, which source is it guys?..."

While I am enjoying this additional thread on the "C&C", I am not sure the original question of the poster is being addressed in light of some of the limits he mentioned.

Learning Ramsay's Coins and Cylinder and performing it properly , is probably one of the most challenging coin routines you might undertake particularly if you aren't really "into" coin magic.

From the '70s into the '90s, very few magicians performed "C&C" and one almost had a instant reputation maker effect if they learned to perform it well. As much as I revere this rourine, a strong argument can be made that the effect has more attraction for magicians than lay audiences.

Most of the modified handlings still pose a challenge to less than involved coin workers because they require hiding multiple coins in one hand and preventing "talking" as coins contact one another as well as transferring multiple coins from one hand to the other.

However, if you truly wish to learn to perform the routine in any of it's variations, I would recommend starting with the originator, John Ramsay. Only then, can you really understand and perhaps more appreciate the subsequent modifications others have made.

Good luck if you decide to have a go at it.

Wells know of what he speaks... He, Scotty York and Tim Connover worked on this together and pretty much "woke up" the coin world to this classic routine.

The latest iteration is Paul Wilson's "mechanical" vesion from http://www.porperoriginals.com

Thanks Pete...as I look up on a nearby shelf and see the little red cardboard cylinder and cap that Davenport's sold years ago for the C&C (along with the Farelli booklet) that you so kindly gave me. It sets beside the first leather cylinder that Scotty made back in about 1971. I used to have a couple of extra Farelli manuscripts but I gave one to Timmy back in the mid 1970s...sure glad I did.

Well, I never did read the Farelli description of the C&Cs, also I always was aware of it's existance, just wonder what's wrong with the description of Andrew Galloways in the Ramsay booklets ?

Why this remark?

Well, simply because I recall, Farelli did neglect a couple of finer points of John Ramsays performance, like when John instructed *look at the spectator*, Farelli did leave this out of the description, mentioning it wasn't important to the routine..

How wrong he was!

The more impressive it is, Tim Conover did construct his routine with the Victor Farelli description as a base

David Roth, and then Geoff Latta were the guys who started the modernization of the trick.

David discussed the reversing of the two phases and how the published Ramsay version might have been just one of the ways he did the trick. Galloway has since commented that Ramsay had other versions of Three Coins in the Hat, and it seems likely that Ramsay also had other handlings of his other works.

My non gaffed handling, and the idea of putting the cork and cylinder up on a reveresed wineglass came from experimenting with the trick.

Werner -

Thanks for your comments.

In the early '70s, Scotty, myself, and Tim (and anyone else)all used the Farelli booklet because we had no other choice - Galloway's "The Ramsay Classics" with his description of the C&C wasn't published until 1977.

I am a bit curious regarding your comment that Farelli left out an instruction of Ramsay's to look at the spectators with a mention that it was unimportant to the routine. I don't recall this in the Farelli booklet, but I do recall that he emphasized looking at the spectators at certain points by bolding the text. I would be most appreciative if you could direct me to the text where Farelli says that it isn't important to look at the spectators.

The Galloway description tracks the Farelli description quite closely - using the same words often - but adds additional details. However, I believe one can learn the original routine from either source without suffering any real disadvantage.

While Tim did learn the original routine first (and from the Farelli description), he soon made modifications and has continued to do so over the years. I recall one modification he made before his appearance at the 2004 WMS. Maybe some day he will release his handling to the magic world. I do know that he has been working on a publication about the C&C.

I doubt anyone who has learned the routine, including Galloway, does it exactly as Ramsay did. Galloway makes mention of the fact that Ramsay had very chubby hands and adapted sleights and tricks to be "...part of himself." He goes on to say that people like himself with more average hands had to modify certain of Ramsay's sleights. I suspect most have found this to be very true.

Bill

Bill,
as mentioned,I don't have the Farelli book and the info re Farelli did neglect the points I mentioned is 'second hand' info, but coming from a reliable source Iunfortunately can't reacall.

IMHO, it was quite a remarkable 'remark' from Farelli, that those 'things' wheren't important and I recall he mentioned that to Ramsay, when Ramsay wondered that these finer points wheren't included in the booklet.

I either did read this on the Genii-forum (not very likely, as it is only twice or so I have visited there) more likely I did read it here on this forum, but as the searchfunction is disablet these days, I
can't check back.

Maybe the one originally providing that info does read these lines and give his comments?.

I THINK if not mistaken, what happen was when Farelli FIRST wrote up the routine, he left out the fine points.
Then while showing it to Ramsay, Ramsay said you left out the part where I "look at the spectators" Farelli then said this is unimportant, to look at the details in the handling and Ramsay said No the most important thing IS to look at the spectators, so put that in big bold print.

And I believe this comes from John Carney's dvd on Ramsay.

So I took this as it was Farelli's rough draft, and it was re-writen with the bold print.

Hope this helps,

Joe

Thanks Werner and Joe -

I had not heard that before. Galloway does point out that Farelli never learned how to do any of the Ramsay routines he wrote up while he did. I would think this would make a great difference particularly in regard to the finer points and handling the sleights that Ramsay did. I wish there was more film footage of Ramsay doing his routines.

The Farelli book is very difficult to practice if you are a beginner in magic but it's a very nice trick ! David Roth made some nice tricks too ! I really don't know what kind of books about coins and cylinders that exists for beginners..