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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts 
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This forum has many, many threads dealing with theft, copying, IP rights, etc.
Many here view any sort of performance given without permission from the creator (or at least a purchase of their published effect) to be unethical and/or illegal. Can someone please answer this: How can tens of thousands of singers auditioning for American Idol sing songs which they have no rights to? How can other professionals (the judges) encourage such behavior? To be realistic, those auditioning are buliding possibly an entire carrer on a song created by someone else! America, the lawyers, and the music industry seem to have no problem with this. I don't either. Are we any different? |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5931 Posts
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A visit to the US Gov Copyright website is what you require. I am sure someone will be along to let you know where it is or you could search the preveous threads as it is frequently brought up in the debate.
Tom |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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I don’t know about the legal rights, but most professionals feel flattered that thousands are trying to imitate them. I wouldn’t think that many complain.
Yes I think we are different. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts
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IMHO...the people singing the song of camera in auditions that never air are doping this with no monetary gain to them American Idol or FOX. The clips that do air are most likely being covered with a blanket license with ASCAP/BMI.
Now that is how it would work anywhere except TV. On TV you have waht is called sync rights normally, however in this situation I think it will still fall under a blanket license. Also, don't foregt that some of these are so bad, that they jusy might fall under satire or parody, which is a whole different story all together and no rights would need to be paid...LOL..though technically one must cah nge the words....but some of these contestants have forgotten planty of words. I'm sure some others will chime in here with possibly more info. Kevin Posted: Jan 27, 2005 3:36pm ---------------------------------------------- Tom...maybe the artists wouldnt complain...I doubt that, anyways ASCAP & BMI sure would. that's how they stay in business. Just yesterday ASCAP went after 24 nightclubs, bars, and restaurants in 15 US states, that have been using music with no license. Here is the link to the article. http://p2pnet.net/story/3679
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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longhaired1 Veteran user Salida 316 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-27 15:08, bsears wrote: Forgive me as I have never seen American Idol. Are the auditions done in a public performance or a private performance? If the auditions are open to the public then the venue would simply have to pay the royalties to ascap or bmi or some such performing rights organization. If the auditions are privately held then I don't believe that is considered a public performance (this statement is based on my conversation with a bmi representative and should not be construed as anything else). The rights for American Idol to broadcast the performances are a separate issues, and I think we can rest assured that they have taken the steps to secure the rights to broadcast the material. I believe it is much easier to obtain the rights to someone "covering" a song than it would be to use the original recordings of the songs. The music industry wants these songs to be played, covered, re-recorded and released etc. because that means more money in their pockets. And of course what the creator of the song thinks is usually a non-issue as they have likley given up most or all rights to their work to get the recording contract. But the question of "Are we different" is really the crux of the issue, and one that I've been thinking about for a while. In fact we are different in as much as there are three distinct issues at play, effect, methodology and routine. I'll ignore the first two and focus instead on routining and how we differ from the other arts in terms of protecting intellectual property. Three words: We Sold Out. Perhaps there are exceptions to the rule, but generally when we buy or sell a routine we do so outright as opposed to licensing it. In a licensing arrangement, the creator retains the rights to the work and the buyer only receives a license to use the work. But it doesn't work like that in magic. When a magician leaves the shop having purchased a routine, he owns it and can use it, ignore it, resell it (not reproduce and resell) give it away, or change it. We're talking legality here, not ethics. In my opinion we've relied too much on ethics, not that people aren't basically ethical, but that it's too ambiguous a method to rely on for protection. The music business has learned that it needs to a: protect the rights of the license holder and b: make the licensing process uniform and streamlined to promote the use of it's intellectual property. If every cover band in the world had to contact and negotiate rights individually for every song they play it would be unworkable, the songs wouldn't be played, and the music companies would make less revenue. I believe this tradition of selling vs licensing routines helps to create a mindset that magic material is less valuable and therefore fair game. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3171 Posts
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Kevin I agree, in the auditions sometimes it’s hard to tell who’s song they’re singing. Lol
Excellent thoughts in there longhaired. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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okito25 Regular user Victoria BC Canada 145 Posts
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I would think perhaps they are paying BMI Or ASCAP .. or perhaps.. that may be included at the time of registration... I want to know more ... we are having an Idol audition here in My town this Sunday I will poke around and see whats up.. I know some of the Resorts I work will pay the Royalties for me use certain Music in My show .. or I use what the DJ has in "stock".. A bunch (street Performers) at a Festival were approached By ASCAP Cops .. and were Hurranged quite extensivly.. for using David Foster, Yanni,and John Tesh's music in their Show
Keet |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Fostering a dumb and dumber audience for gong show nostalgia... yes that might be a sort of intellectual theft... or at least a soporific
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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The television people make sure all rights issues are covered before a second of it is aired.
But we aARE different. No one in the audience believes any of the contestants wrote "Yellow Submarine" or "Viva Las Vegas". However, would someone in your audience think you "invented" or wrote the script to whatever Copperfield piece you have "appropriated" for your own shows? If someone releases the item in a book, it is magic-culture accepted behavior to consider it available for use. (Though as Welsley James has pointed out, legally the issue may be different). If it is in print, I think it is fair game. However it is all too common for magicians to see another perform an effect and present it AS THEIR OWN. Even more common is it for them to steal presentations for tricks which may be published. This is wrong. Sure, a kid doing it as he is "learning" is forgivable. But to include material in your show which was copied from another is wrong. Now, if we want to start giving writing credits in our programs.... |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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I'm certain that the stations and producers have their legal bases covered, but I'd be curious to know exactly how. The "blanket licensing" policy seems likely. They may even provide contestants with a list of acceptible song options.
Longhaired - it is a VERY public performance. One of the highest rated TV shows on TV. Lots of $$$ involved. I suppose this same issue could apply to anyone hosting Kareoke. Is anyone familiar with the licensing or ethical concerns there? Is it enough to just buy the machine and recordings to begin hosting kareoke (sp?) events for fun and profit? |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts
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I am not certain anyone would believe we invented any of the magic that we do anymore than they would think a singer singing a song they have never heard was the originator. They very well may, then again they may not. How could you know for sure without asking each individual.
But this is the slippery slope of conscience. Every time a similar question is asked almost everyone has a definate opinion of what is "carved in stone" right. And in the end we are farther away from any real answers. If right and wrong were that easy to decide, what need would we have for lawyers?
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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bloodyjack Veteran user Seattle WA 343 Posts
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Cover bands play others songs all the time. that's why there called cover bands.
"sir i sent you half the kidne i took from one woman prasarved it for you tother piece i fried and ate it was very nise i may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer"
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5931 Posts
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I am certain that people do believe that these little close-up miracles are uniquely ours when we put the due work to make them "ours". The point still remains that magic would benefit from greater respect for the pedigree of what we do... as music does.
Most singers are proud of the source of their songs and will tell you who it came from either before or after their performance. Magicians seem to act as if there is a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to the source of their skills. There lies the basis for how "we" are different. Personally, I find that my audiences are more engaged when they hear the source of a routine gracefully integrated into a performance. I tell 'em and find that they always want to ask more. |
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts
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Longhaired1 wrote "Forgive me as I have never seen American Idol."
That's probably a good thing. 
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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Steinmeyer shared a story of hearing a magician stating before his audience that the next trick was one of his own (the performer's) creations. It was, of course, one of Jim's tricks. So, I believe, like Tom, that audience's do think we are the creators of what we do.
Now, if your audience sees you every week with a new trick fresh out of the wrapper, then they may think otherwise. But by and large magicians are given credit for creating their own stuff. Heck, even among ourselves we do this. How many "magicians" still refer to Blaine's Two Card Monte? |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts
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I am often asked: "where did you learn that?" So the conclusion I reach is they do not believe I "created" anything. Again I just believe it's an opinion thing, of course trying to change opinions or prove/disproof them is pointless.
But I do believe respect is important for the future of our work. But unfortunately respect is often hard to find. I don't see why you couldn't say where you got the Idea from......... but where do you stop? is it when you use patter? is it when you use a gaff or a sleight? If we tell them where we got every trick, we are looking at some long boring shows. Taking an effect patter and all off the screen or page and directly into your act may be tacky, immoral. But I think it's going to happen. Even Music is stolen, even movies are bootlegged and they have definate laws.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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Respect is important. I guess I find it interesting that someone who sings a Steve Wonder song on Am. Idol may be seen as showing respect, whereas a magician doing a magical effect without credit or "permission" may somehow be out of bounds.
Yeah, the coverband thing I've brought up before BloodyJack, and have yet to receive a good response. A group of guys can play the whole Beatles catalogue and be loved and legit, but god forbid Mr. John P. Cadabra try to duplicate a routine that "belongs" to another magician. Of course we all want to have totally original personalities and do all our own stuff. that's a long road. Only recently have those from the first "idols" shows started recording original songs and have moved away from covers. |
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longhaired1 Veteran user Salida 316 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-27 22:30, truthteller wrote: I don't think the lay music audience cares who wrote the material. When my band plays a four hour set here in Las Vegas we play as many as 50 songs. Our job onstage is to create and maintain a certain atmosphere and keep that going. I certainly don't feel any obligation to tell the audience who wrote what, or even to tell them the title of the songs. Sometimes the right thing to do is to play several songs back to back with no delay in between. It's similar to magic in the sense that we are weaving a "spell" of sorts. Quote:
However it is all too common for magicians to see another perform an effect and present it AS THEIR OWN. Even more common is it for them to steal presentations for tricks which may be published. If I were to release a routine to another magician, and they obtained it properly, I would encourage them not to give any credit, by all means please perform it as if it is your own. But that's based on my performance philosophy. Specifically, in the act I'm developing now I don't even acknowledge the existence of magic as a performing art. Quote:
On 2005-01-28 10:40, bsears wrote: Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm aware that it's a TV show. What I am not clear about is whether the auditions themselves are performed publicly or privately for the producers of the show. If they are performed in public then they would be responsible for paying royalties for the public (live) performance as well as paying a licensing fee for the segments of songs that they choose to broadcast. Quote:
I suppose this same issue could apply to anyone hosting Kareoke. Is anyone familiar with the licensing or ethical concerns there? Is it enough to just buy the machine and recordings to begin hosting karaoke events for fun and profit? I'll paraphrase my conversation with ASCAP a few years ago regarding performing rights and fees. (Disclaimer): This is my recollection of a conversation with an ASCAP representative and I'm just a guy typing on the internet. Please understand that you should verify this information before acting on it 
Q: How do I obtain permission to use a piece of music in my act for live performance? A: You don't need to obtain permission. You just need to pay the royalties. Q: So if I perform in a nightclub I have to keep track of my performances and pay the royalties? A: No. If you perform in a nightclub (for hire) the venue is responsible for paying the royalties. They are the ones providing the public performance. Q: Okay. So if I am hired to perform at a private function, I am then expected to pay the royalties myself? A: No. That's not a public performance. I was able to determine that there were very few scenarios in which I was responsible for paying royalties on the music in my act. I rented a theatre once and produced a public show and was responsible for the royalties in that case, but in that case I had my own composer and we worked out the arrangements between ourselves. Again, this is just a guy typing on the net, please verify everything before proceeding. And the above information pertained to live performance only. Broadcast is a different can of worms. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts
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Longhair,
A difference is the nature of music and magic. If a band sells themselves as a cover band, the booker knows what he or she is getting. No one gets hurt. Also, must music audiences are savvy enough to know what is a classic and what is original. Unlike cover bands, most magicians sell themselves as unique and different. We want people to hire US specifically, not just a magician in general. Now, I know some performers who are happy to be "just a magician." But I remind youu that if you are an interchangeable commodity then your fees will always reflect such. If I develop a routine, do NOT release it, and you start performing it - You are taking away from my marketability and promise as something unique. There will be audience who think that YOU are the guy to hire for that special something. And that's just wrong. Now, if I DO sell the routine, then yes, do with it what you will. I believe that a sold routine implies permission to perform. But I am a bit more strict than most in that I believe that if you see another performer do a trick and you then want to do that trick because of seeing that performer, it is wrong to do that trick UNLESS you get the seen performer's permission. Even if it is a trick in print and not a creation of the performer. For example. The Kornwinder car was around for ages. But nobody wanted to do it until they saw Tamariz present it. In my mind, one should have asked Tamariz for permission to start doing the trick before buying it from a proper source. Likewise with Everhardt's Sam the Bellhop. Malone was doing it, but no one noticed until they saw him. No one had a problem running out and apeing him, but I feel that was wrong. of course, both men have released their handlings, so the point is moot. But I hope you can see where I was going with that. |
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longhaired1 Veteran user Salida 316 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-28 14:57, truthteller wrote: I agree completely and was under the impression that some of the posters here were asking that credit be given even for routines that were obtained ethically and legally. The answer to people who are just ripping off someone else's work is for them to stop doing so. I've always thought that the credit issue was traditionally more relevant in the arena of publishing and marketing material to the magic market. I've rarely heard it discussed in the context of crediting the orginator for the sake of audience consumption. But to be fair I don't discuss magic much outside of the context of the Café, and here only in the Food for Thought section. Quote:
But I am a bit more strict than most in that I believe that if you see another performer do a trick and you then want to do that trick because of seeing that performer, it is wrong to do that trick UNLESS you get the seen performer's permission. Even if it is a trick in print and not a creation of the performer. I do see where you're going with that. My personal philosophy is that if I see a magician perform something I try not to perform it, and the more publically that original performance the more strictly I would adhere to my policy of avoidance... in other words the "hotter" and more popular an effect is the higher it would go on my "do not perform" list. That's really more a function of how I develop my routines. Generally speaking, the last factor I consider in the process is the selection of particular effects. I create the characters, situations and themes first and then select the appropriate effects later. |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » American Idol equals intellectual theft? (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jan 27, 2005 08:08 pm 
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