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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » When does proving become overproving? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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leko
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Three years ago everybody would have said: Proving after a good retention vanish? Ridiculous! That's overproving!!

Then Mickey Silver blew us all away.

Some might repeat the words of Al Baker: don't run when you're not being chased. But aren't spectators nowadays more skeptical than forty years ago?

Others might object that proving slows down the action, but wouldn't that also make the magic more convincing?
Partizan
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I find the main problem today is priming.
Many seem to prime the spectator to see 'magic'. In this day and age the word magic has much less stock as a way to prime a person. It now puts people in a state of challenge when what you want is observation and participation. The proof aspect shold be the finale of the trick not the basis.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain
rannie
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Well said Partizan. Most magicians nowadays, begin with a challenge and end up being watched like a hawk. The result is getting tangled long before the finale. Too much hand washing is one of the dead give aways in my opinion. It is probably stems from guilt. Other times it is also a case of, "look I'm so good at this" or " I am so skilled and clever" kind of thinking.

Mickey Silver does something else. Something special ! He extends or expands the retention of vision. He displays the right amount of emotion and also his inner questions about where the coin really is. There is a reason! What a performer!

I think we should be prepared for challenges by learning ways to prove when challenged. I try to present my magic in a way the spectators need not challenge me. If they do , only then do I prove a little, just to satisfy my audience. I also try to plan multiple outs, endings and handlings.

Peace,

Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."

-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer

www.rannieraymundo.com
www.tapm.proboards80.net
leko
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What exactly do you mean by 'priming'?
My dictionary only says: instruction.
Mike Wild
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Priming is setting an expectation level in the onset of a performance. Using magic as the primer makes you as a performer have to work harder to reach the level that you set.

Mickey is a master at setting a high expectation level without being taken as a challenge to his audiences to "figure him out".

Great post, and a very important and useful topic / standard in magic.

Mike
<><>< SunDragon Magic ><><>

"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
Tilman
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Here is a link to a very thoughtful (freely available) theoretical chapter on challenges, from Card Fictions by Pit Hartling:

http://www.card-fictions.com/Inducing%20Challenges.pdf
implicit
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It becomes 'overproving', when you eliminate too many of the false possibilities.
Jonathan Townsend
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If you create a situation where they are looking for possibilities, then you are in trouble and no amount of proving will prove a negative.

Mickey's style works for him. How well it will work for anyone else remains to be seen and we will start to find out IF and when he chooses to teach.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
twistedace
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I think that trying to actually "prove" at all is over-proving. Subtlety and subconscious cues are what really "PROVE" the hands empty. Again, I agree with implicit in that using Tamariz's theory of false solutions would be a good way to look at this. If you don't provide and set up enough false solutions without blatantly calling attention to them, then you may be trying to overprove with handwashing.
Jonathan Townsend
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Handwashing may lead folks to believe you have O/C dissorder.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Stuart Hooper
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Agreed, learn to set up situations where people are not desperate for the how.
Craig Ousterling
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I try and perform in a manor that the victim *cough* spectator doesn't care about the how, and get closer to the 'be entertained'. Instead of approaching someone and asking "Would you like to see my magic?" I've tried various different approaches... "Heya. Wanna see somethin cool?" and perform an effect that relates rather than challenges.

~Craig
Jonathan Townsend
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I like the words "audience" and "volunteer" in this context.

Has anyone ever stopped a fairytale to demand of the teller " Hey! What do you mean they are a witch? Couldn't they just be a widow with bad cooking skills?" or similar.

Okay ? Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dean A
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Quote:
On 2005-01-30 17:23, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Handwashing may lead folks to believe you have O/C dissorder.


Good, sensible and above all economical hand washing always looks great to me.

Dean

PS For the record I sprint when I'm not being chased.
bsears
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For my money it depends on the situation and how good/natural the "proving" is. If the audience has been exposed to even a little bit of magic (seems like more and more have), then a "convincer" can make all the difference.

and -you can't "run" when you've already been caught-
Dean A
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Quote:
On 2005-01-31 10:07, bsears wrote:

and -you can't "run" when you've already been caught-


Well you can, you just have to escape first.
Jonathan Townsend
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If they are looking for a coin in your hands, then you may have lost it.

Getting cute by vogueing is not going to convince anyone that your hands are empty, and may make them wonder if you are light in the loafers.

It's not a race folks. If you want "hands empty" style magic... you may as well use a holdout or pulls or hoo coins or cuffing etc.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dean A
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Or you may want to combine handwashg etc, with holdout work etc and render something absolutely 'impossible' to deconstruct.

Dean
BlackShadow
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I think the best approach is a casual openhanded gesture when you do happen to be clean. Continually proving looks unnatural and breaks up the flow of the routine. If you have conducted an "impossible" vannish by sleeving, wristing or a pull then a quick casual palms up open fingered gesture with both hands may be appropriate. You can then turn your hands down as part of the lead in to the next segment.
Jonathan_Miller
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I have seen quite a few magicians use some kind of hand-washing in regards to coin magic and it generally looks either cramped or at least suspicious. In fact, the only magician I have seen consistently pull it off is Sol Stone and perhaps that's because when he does it, it doesn't even seem like proving, let alone overproving.
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