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keymaster
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Hi, I'm really interested in the chop cup, and want to get started in it. I've already began cups and balls, but want to try and include chop cups as well. I'm not sure about the types of dvds or videos out there about learning routines for the chop cup, so if anyone has any ideas that would be great.

Also, I sorta have an idea of how the chop cup actually works, but if anyone can explain it to me please PM me. Thanks all.
Bill Hegbli
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Here is a place to start. Read this string.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......5&16
Werner G. Seitz
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Re the Chop Cup just one thought... Smile

Isn't it 'strange' to use a LARGE cup and a rather smal ball to do that routine?
Depending on where one intends to perform, one should consider one of the 'smaller' cups.

Unless ones name is Paul Daniels and one does this on a large stage, I would go for a cup as smal as possible and so better 'match' the ball..

For parlour/restaurant work, a high and large cup is out of place..JMHO though.. Smile

I always wondered when seing performers using an oversized and very high cup and a tiny little ball...makes no sense to me.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2005-02-02 22:52, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
Re the Chop Cup just one thought... Smile

Isn't it 'strange' to use a LARGE cup and a rather small ball to do that routine?
[...]
I always wondered when seeing performers using an oversized and very high cup and a tiny little ball...makes no sense to me.. Smile


From these statements I can only conclude that you don't understand the structure or the point of virtually ALL Cups and Balls routines (of which The Chop Cup is a sub-category).

It's not about the relative size of the cups and the balls; it's about the FINAL LOADS! The distinct disproportion between the cups and the small balls is important so that the audience recognizes (consciously or unconsciously) that the cups ARE large for the balls. Then, when the final loads are produced, they say to themselves (consciously or unconsciously):" Oh, I get it now; it's about the impossibly BIG items that he just produced."

That's also why it makes much better theatre to produce non-ball items (such as fruit) for the final loads - to establish the distinction between the set-up (small balls) and the pay-off.

That's the best I can do to explain basic C&B theory in 200 words or less. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-02-03 01:14, Thomas Wayne wrote:
From these statements I can only conclude that you don't understand the structure or the point of virtually ALL Cups and Balls routines (of which The Chop Cup is a sub-category).


Thank you for your most insightfull remarks.
They are matching all the others of your earlier postings Smile

And I don't wonder you didn't get my point.

I was looking at the issue in question from a spectators point of view, and that is what counts for me...and not about the oversized loads possible to load, which in any case have nothing to do with the *HEIGHT* of the cup, solely with the 'opening' - and 'oversized' to me, ment the height and not the 'opening' !..

Mind you the words of Ken Brooke...it's not the size (of the loads) that counts, but the surprise of a 'different' object appearing..
But what did he know about these matters..Thomas Wayne most certainly would have teached him!

Oh well, I didn't expect *YOU* to understand my view... Smile

Ken Brooke, Final loads, Pete Biro story:
http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/u......5#000010
______________________________________________________
Magic to me, is about the ppl I have meet, the nice ones.. Smile

The *nasty* ones I like too, I like to tease them
Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
cataquet
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I have to side with Thomas on this matter, but with one qualification - rather than saying it's all about the final load, I would have said it's about the CONTRAST between the original ball and the final load. That is, if you used a 1" ball and produced a 1" fruit, the audience would not be left with the same "Wow!" factor that they would be if you produced a much larger final load (like a 2" orange). Also, a small chop cup routine is nowhere near as impressive to an audience as the same routine with a larger cup, because the final load has to be smaller. Just think of using a thimble as a chop cup; you could conceal the final load in your hand right from the beginning of the routine. In the end, you would just get a "that's nice" response.

Werner, your reference to Pete's re-telling of Ken's performance is poor logic. That is, the correct conclusion is "an incongruous final load produces a strong reaction". Ken did not prove that "size does not matter". That would have required him to give the same performance for a similar audience, with the final production of much larger lemons. A comparison of the reaction of the two audiences would then have answered the question... I have performed the same routine in walkaround and formal closeup, where the only difference is the size of the cup. The larger cup produces the larger final load and gets a stronger audience response.

However, all this assumes that the final load fills the cup. That is, you don't want to use a huge cup and produce a tiny final load... For example, with the taller (Don Alan style) chop cup, many magicians fail to take advantage of the extra height, so they would be better off with a dumpy style cup.

Now back to the topic.... Keymaster, have a look at http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/magchop.htm It's a great reference for chop cup routines
Harold Cataquet
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2005-02-03 04:09, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
[...]______________________________________________________
Magic to me, is about the ppl I have meet, the nice ones.. Smile

The *nasty* ones I like too, I like to tease them
Smile


I know what you mean; I even like some of the ignorant, stubborn ones as well.

Oh yeah... Smile <----- (sometimes I forget that part)

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-02-02 21:32, keymaster wrote:
Hi, I'm really interested in the chopcup, and want to get started in it. Ive already began cups and balls, but want to try and include chopcups as well. Im not sure about the types of dvds or videos out there about learning routines for the chopcup, so if anyone has any ideas that would be great.

Also, I sorta have an idea of how the chopcup actually works, but if anyone can explain it to me please PM me. Thanks all.


Well, gee, where to start. If you are interested in the chop cup, why don't you know how it works? That kind of information is not what one would call the best-kept secret on the face of the earth. We don't give out secrets in this part of the forum. As I post this, you have 5 posts. This means you need to make 45 more posts before you can get into the secret sessions. There all sorts of mysteries are reveailed.

You might even learn how the breakaway wand works.

Until then, I suggest that you purchase an inexpensive chop cup (two words, by the way) and learn a simple routine.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Werner G. Seitz
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It's difficult to express ones thoughts without one can get misunderstood.

It's all about visability!

When I mentioned 'oversized', I actually ment too high a cup (like even Paul Daniels does use, and which didn't add anything at all to the size of the final load), I didn't mean the 'opening'.

As said, it depends on where you are working.

Again, just my opinion, but I want to make it more clear what I mean.

When doing walk around magic in f.ex a restaurant/strolling, a mini sized Chop Cup would be the one to go (IMHO) and that for several reasons, also for NOT to carry too large loads, which aren't needed for a powerful 'climax'.

When doing Street Magic, one HAS to use larger cups -for visability- but still not strange and outstandingly large ones..

It became 'fashion' to use very large (IMHO even ugly) cups on the Street, one of the most well know Streetworker does, his loads are large (smaller ones would do) and the melon loaded anyway doesn't come from a cup.

Anyway he goes for visability and apart from, I think these oversized cups are ugly, he achieves what he want, they se what he does, at least the final loads.
TBH, I really think the kind of cups are too large.

I like, f.ex., the Bertram cups, similar to what Glenn Bishop used, or -of course- the Paul Fox cups, which have a nice balance in size as well as making it possible to use large loads...let me say *large enough* loads.. Smile

Also, the size of the cups assure, that the loads 'can' almost look bigger then the cups.
I've myself a smal collection of Chop Cups also one that's is way out of place because it's HEIGHTS!

There is no reason for that abnormal heights at all, unless one is afraid the ball is bouncing back and to me it still looks strange seen from a specs point of view, as the oversized (in this case it is NOT the heights) cups (C&B) used by a well known streetworker..

I'm not here to critisize him or others using oversized cups, I just add my opinion without 'babbling' after what Ken Brooke said nor anybody else, just the observations I made myself and the thoughts this gave me..

As mentioned it depends..on where one is working, BUT this 'depends' has to be within a reasonable size.. Smile

High cups are also justified when using spongeballs as balls, like in the Ireland routine, the one Fred Kaps did, or Johnny Paul..
BTW. notice the 'smal' lemon Johnny Paul did use as a final load..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
rikbrooks
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Quote:
On 2005-02-03 08:28, cataquet wrote:
That is, if you used a 1" ball and produced a 1" fruit, the audience would not be left with the same "Wow!" factor that they would be if you produced a much larger final load (like a 2" orange). Also, a small chop cup routine is nowhere near as impressive to an audience as the same routine with a larger cup, because the final load has to be smaller.


I do so disagree. I do a mini routine. The final load is not that much bigger than the balls, but it's a glow in the dark eyeball. It has never failed to floor them, every single time. My routine is just long enough that people are starting to think, "Hmmm, where IS that ball going?" they are starting to follow me a little more attentively then BAM! It's an eyeball.

Yes, Virginia, it's the contrast that makes a final load, but there is more than one factor that leads to contrast.
cataquet
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Reread what you quoted, Rik! I am NOT saying that a final load that contrasts with the original ball (but is roughly the same size) is not a strong effect. I am saying that you can make THAT effect STRONGER by making that final load LARGER (ie, an orange instead of a tangerine)... So, if you used a cup that was four times as big as your minicup, but still used the same minicup props, you shouldn't expect any change in reaction [although one could argue that there would be a slight retrograde due to the excessive contrast between the cup and ball/final load size]. However, if you used the same miniprops, but [taking advantage of the larger cup] finished with a larger final load (eg, a cup full of eyes rather than just one), then you would logically expect the audience impact to be stronger. Surely, you can't be disagreeing with this?
Harold Cataquet
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-02-03 22:55, Bill Palmer wrote:

You might even learn how the breakaway wand works.

Until then, I suggest that you purchase an inexpensive chop cup (two words, by the way) and learn a simple routine.

A simple and recommended routine is in the Mark Wilson book published on the Chop Cup many years back, apart from this, it is a very nicely made/done book, very well produced.
As someone stated that I had no idea what the C&Bs are all about, which did include the Chop Cup, I -already many years back- did study everything available re this matter, which of course did include the Neville Shute book published by Morrisey.

But that guy is correct, I'm still not through 'getting' it..it's a lifelong study..so I do my best.. Smile

Apart from this,the Mark Wilson edition also contains advanced routines, amonst others the one from Earl Nelson and IIRC, even the late ( Smile ) Alan Wakeling..

Ahh..I still don't know how the break-away wand works, but I could make one anytime if I wanted..
Great piece of entertainment actually for kid shows.. Smile

Quote:
On 2005-02-04 11:33, cataquet wrote:
....So, if you used a cup that was four times as big as your minicup, ...

You're basically correct !
What about using champaine buckets, and the final loads are large footballs on a spring tensioned release behind your bord? Smile

Releasing it with your foot, or if you are good at football just kick it up into the bucket whilst it clears the table for a moment?
Might even give a greater impact?

Note though, that if the bucket is that large, the surprise isn't THAT large re the final load..there has to be a 'balance' Smile, that'ts why the Paul Fox cups are so great, when the final load is place on top of the bottom of them!!!!!!!

*Sleight of feed* is the bucket solution called called, IIRC Smile

As also said, it's a matter of balance, where you perform re visability...
The Street *needs* a larger cup then the restauarant, still some of what I saw not only where too large by not really pleasant to look at..out of proportion, one might say..
Oh well, just my thoughts, actually I don't really care what ppl use as long as they are happy, and more important, their specs are..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
rikbrooks
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Cataquet, boy, I don't put THAT much thought into it. Of course a difference in size between the original and the final load is desirous, but it is not the most important factor.

Surprise is the most important factor and surprise can be achieved many ways. The eyeball that I use is larger than the regular balls, but since the cup is a mini it can only be so large. Thus the contrast in size is not as great as say, a baseball.

My contrast is in perception. They've been watching this little crocheted ball, ignorant of any possibility of change. They may be thinking that there are more than one ball even though they never saw a second ball introduced and they can't figure out how it came to be there.

Then they see something entirely unexpected and just a little thrilling (my eyeball doesn't look real)
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2005-02-04 12:04, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
[...]
many years back- did study everything available re this matter, which of course did include the Neville Shute book published by Morrisey.

[...]


Morrissey (two "s's") published a book by Neville Shute?

Are we talking about THE Neville Shute (often spelled ‘Nevil’) who wrote “On the Beach” and “A Town Called Alice” ? I never knew that; I love Neville Shute – "The Trustee from the Toolroom" is still one of my all-time favorite novels.

Geez, you learn something new everyday… if you’re not careful.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Werner G. Seitz
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Hehehe my friend.. well..everything I write is out of memory.. Smile
I don't rush to the bookshelf to look things up, unless I want to draw attention to a certain page in a book..

I think it must be a credit to me, I at least had Neville Shute in mind..I bet not everybody knows him Smile

Anyway, to refresh the memory, I went to the shelf..yes..

Merlyn T. Shute did write the *The 'How to Book* of the Chop Cup..
And right Morrissey Magic Ltd. 1 edition jan. 1980
After all, I have a couple of their cups..

I'll ask 'em to remove the extra 's' in their name to make life easier for me.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Mr. Muggle
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Quote:
On 2005-02-02 22:52, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
Re the Chop Cup just one thought... Smile

Isn't it 'strange' to use a LARGE cup and a rather smal ball to do that routine?
Depending on where one intends to perform, one should consider one of the 'smaller' cups.

Unless ones name is Paul Daniels and one does this on a large stage, I would go for a cup as smal as possible and so better 'match' the ball..

For parlour/restaurant work, a high and large cup is out of place..JMHO though [...]


I never gave much thought to the taller cups of the past in comparison to the shorter one's of today; at best I just considered it a difference in style of a different era.

I read that in 1960 Don Alan cut over an inch from his Master Cup so that it would fit into his case, and afterwards the "stubby" cup became a hot item among magician's (The Complete Don Alan's Chop Cup,Ron Bauer, 2005). Since that time we primarly find cups that are about 3" or so in height.

While Im not sure if Don Alan ever considered the illusion of "ball size" and visibility with using a different sized cup, Alan's "improvment" ended up making the standard balls look larger while not taking away from the effect of the final loads. But I digress, I agree that a larger cup looks strange- unless your a character who would normally use a larger, taller cup. I also prefer the short, "stubby" look of a cup as long as it has a shape to it.

MM
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2005-02-04 16:06, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
[...]

Merlyn T. Shute did write the *The 'How to Book* of the Chop Cup..
And right Morrissey Magic Ltd. 1 edition jan. 1980
After all, I have a couple of their cups..

I'll ask 'em to remove the extra 's' in their name to make life easier for me.. Smile


Yeah, Merlyn's okay too, but you really owe it to yourself to check out Neville. Go to ABEBOOKS and buy a used copy of just about anything he wrote - just can't go wrong.

As for the two "s's" in Morrissey, I only remember because Herb (back when he was still alive) corrected me everytime I got it wrong Smile

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Werner G. Seitz
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The Shute's are fine...but if one wants to listen to the world, one has to listen to Tom Lehrer..
Still -even in 2005- he still has a point.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Thomas Wayne
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Tom "Vatican Rag" Lehrer? Loved him in the 70's, had no idea he was still around today.

Unless I remember incorrectly, "lehrer" means teacher in German, yes? I always thought that was appropriate for him...

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-02-05 04:26, Thomas Wayne wrote:
Tom "Vatican Rag" Lehrer? Loved him in the 70's, had no idea he was still around today.

Unless I remember incorrectly, "lehrer" means teacher in German, yes? I always thought that was appropriate for him...

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Yep..exactly..he's in his midt 70s now..
He was a teacher and his name means 'teacher' in german, correct..

Here are a few links from my PC-section re Tom Lehrer.., entirely off topic Smile
He toured DK/CPH too, way back..the students loved him..

I used to hear his music late night in bed and felt asleep with a smile on the face..

http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/
http://www.privatehand.com/flash/elements.html
http://php.indiana.edu/~jbmorris/FAQ/lehrer.bio.html
http://php.indiana.edu/~jbmorris/lehrer.html
http://home.teleport.com/~osh/leher.htm
http://s2n.org/Articles/Lehrer.html

My favourites where the *We're all go together when we go*..
The Wernher von Braun song re the criples and widows in ol' London Town
Be prepared
The little girl next door
The Wiener Schnitzel waltz
I hold your hand in mine
The San Alamo song where they all steal each others ideas..

Great stuff!
The world didn't get better since Smile

Try the first link..they're playing his music there.. Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
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