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hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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And go and read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"...still one of the best books around, by Mr. Carnegie of course.

Howard
Cameron Francis
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I've read a couple of posts where people seem to defend those who would snub because they're afraid wanna-bes will steal their secrets and why should professionals talk to a greedy consumer who just wants to learn secrets and has no love of the art? Let me ask you something, if you meet someone, don't you have a good idea within two minutes of talking to that person of how serious they are about what they do?

I think Maven's infamous comment regarding giving amateurs the time of day is pretty awful. Then again, I've only read it out of context so I don't really know all of what he said.

Today's novice is tomorrow's pro. And it isn't too hard to judge who is passionate and who is not.
Drewmcadam
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Magic H2os,

You're right, isn't Banachek just one of the most lovely people you could hope to meet? (And so is Heidi, his wife.) And while we're on the subject - brought up by Howard – How To Make friends and Influence People. One of the many things I learned from that book was to take the time and write if somebody has given you good service. It takes only a little time, but can really make their day – week, or month.

I’ll try to keep this short, but last year I played a hotel in Dundee. The event organiser for the hotel who was looking after me made my life so easy. Everything was in place – the PA , the rise – everything. And when I asked that the lights might be pointed more towards the stage area, it was instantly done – along with a goodly supply of hotel cutlery.

I wrote to the manager, pointing out her professionalism.

A couple of weeks later, a friend of mine phoned to ask if I could attend his 50th birthday bash. It was to take place in the same hotel, and as his cousin was the financial director of the place, he though he could get my wife and I preferential rates.

He phoned back a few minutes later demanding to know what was going on. His cousin, on hearing my name, offered my wife and I a top room – at no charge! It later transpired that my letter was pinned up on the wall behind him when mu friend called!

On two other occasions I’ve been re-booked (for oil company executives – simply because they had heard that I had written to the hotel praising the staff after the first event.

Actually, now that I’m thinking here, I could go on to offer numerous examples.

Now, I’m off to read Mr Carnagie’s book again. I recommend you do the same!

Best wishes,

Drew
hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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Yes Drew..I bought the book shortly after making the decision to get into Sales(electronics) rather than the design engineering side. Wanted more involvement with people. I can honestly say one of the best investments I ever made. So much so that as I enter the last month of my working life I have lent it to some of the younger ones and hope they can get as much benefit from its lessons as I did. Of course most of it is just common sense... the little things we forget about in todays World.

Oh! and your book is on its way...hope I get as much benefit out of it for my next sixty years!!

Howard
Waters
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Great point Drew. Isn't that a great thing to do, Imagine all of the appreciated people(and clients)walking around with a smile. Appreciating others is a way of life. Do we "see" people and acknowledge them. If you do, I guarantee that this is coming through in your performances. This idea also extends to other performers... Appreciate people, and appreciate the art. Respect others, respect the art.

Cfrancis: I think you're right. Students should respect the knowledge of the teacher, and the teacher can likewise be motivated by a younger person's drive (who takes the art seriously). I appreciate your point... it is OK to distinguish a devout student, from a mental magic dabbler. One will value the ideas, performance, and methods of another. The other will consume "borrowed" ideas only to search for the next shiny pearl. Isn't is great to see someone excited about the "art". Those who study, actually read, practice, and share with others the mysteries they have discovered (I mean to the audience, as well as another performer). I value each persons thoughts. Let us dream of a perfect effect together (whatever that is). Though I do not oft post, I watch and listen to you all. Great ideas, thanks for sharing. It is a great time to be a performer of mentalism, etc. There are volumous resources for those who will look past the latest DVD. Their is also a great progression, if not evolution of ideas concerning mentalism. As we each refine our thoughts (collective), these methods, effects, presentations become pure... uncompromising, It is a beautiful thing. I think most of these concerns will be self-ironing (read:wrinkle-free). If we respect the art, those accomplished in it will do the same to us.
Cameron Francis
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Amen to that.
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2005-02-03 04:47, Steve Dela wrote:
This may be because there are technically (read that again before arguing!...Technically) less moves etc. in mentalism and it would be easier for you to catch up to their level of performance. (They are scared of you taking their work).

I have a lot of Mental friends that are always willing to help though.
This may be because my main interest is in the Magic side of our profession.

In Magic
Steve Dela

I disagree with this completely. A mentalist's technique MUST be completely perfect. It must be completely natural. There MUST BE NO HINT that any move of any kind has taken place. Punx could do one-handed shuffles with each hand, without looking at the cards, but he never did it in public, because it made him look like a manipulator. His b****t s***c was so clean that you had no idea it had even taken place. And that's the essence of the whole thing.


Posted: Jun 21, 2005 2:00am
--------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-06-20 16:45, cfrancis wrote:
I've read a couple of posts where people seem to defend those who would snub because they're afraid wanna-bes will steal their secrets and why should professionals talk to a greedy consumer who just wants to learn secrets and has no love of the art? Let me ask you something, if you meet someone, don't you have a good idea within two minutes of talking to that person of how serious they are about what they do?

I think Maven's infamous comment regarding giving amateurs the time of day is pretty awful. Then again, I've only read it out of context so I don't really know all of what he said.

Today's novice is tomorrow's pro. And it isn't too hard to judge who is passionate and who is not.

Some of my closest friends are mentalists. They are like any other group of performers. Some are neurotic about their abilities, some are very warm and sharing, others look at this list as the most terrifying thing in cyberspace, because so much is laid out in the open for all and sundry to see.

But there are people who try to tear mentalists down. Look at what Milbourne Christopher and Randi tried to do to Geller. And look at all the amateur magicians who tried to do the same thing to him, and to Kreskin and almost any other famous mentalist you can name. No wonder some of them are wary.

Now, you say that today's novice is tomorrow's pro. That's really a stretch. Today's pro was yesterday's novice, but so were about 100 or so real duds of mentalists. It takes a very special person to make the cut.

All that any of us want you to do is to show us that you are sincere. Once you can convince us of that, then doors will open for you. But you won't get that by being arrogant or hostile. If you are nice to other people, they will be nice to you.

It's that simple.


Posted: Jun 21, 2005 3:04am
----------------------------------------------
I have been giving this topic a lot of thought during the past couple of hours. I think a comparison to other art forms might be in order. Let's take, as an example, the banjo. I earned the bulk of my living playing the banjo for about a decade. When I learned to play the instrument, there were very few books available and teachers were not plentiful in my part of the country, so my knowledge was acquired primarily through listening to recordings and imitating them. My main interest was bluegrass -- Scruggs style.

A musical group called the Stoneman Family came into town and spent a couple of years working the folk circuit in the area. One of them, Roni Stoneman, was one of the few female banjo players in the country. I watched her play a lot -- my group worked some of the same clubs they did. I never approached them for lessons, though. I just kind of hung with them. One day, Roni told me that she was not the real banjo player of the group. It was her brother Scotty who was the real master of the instrument. She added that she only knew two licks. I told her that I realized that, and I played them for her. She let Scotty know that, and Scotty wound up giving me a two-hour banjo lesson. His reasoning, "You are serious about this. You have shown me that you will learn it. I'm going to save you a couple of years of hard work."

Why did these people do this? Well, for one, I was not a threat to them. For another, when I hung with them, I was the "kid," so I was also the "gopher." I would "gopher coffee" and "gopher donuts" -- things like that. So by being a nice guy around them, I got everything that they could offer me.

Magicians and mentalists are the same way. If you are nice to them, they will be nice right back. But don't come on to them like the world's expert on something they already do better than you do. You will be disappointed. And for Pete's sake, don't discuss techniques in front of the laymen.

I have had jerks come up to me after the show and ask me what kind of harness I used on my broom suspension. In front of LAYMEN!!!! And these were supposedly pro's.

So just use your head, and be polite.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Drewmcadam
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All good points, Bill, but Oooh-oooh - can we do banjo jokes, can we? Can we?
Tom Cutts
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No Banjo Jokes!!!!

They are easy pickins.


Uh oh! Smile

I own a five sting Bacon, I'm entitled.

Cheers,

Tom
Richard Osterlind
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Bill,

Great post. I especially liked what you said about magicians trying to take down Geller, Kreskin, etc. And what about so many magician's reactions to the Blaine specials?

I do my best to try to be as kind and generous to anyone who asks any questions, but I do have a few points that really "rile" me. (Kentucky jargon!)

One: when a newcomer shows no respect for the history of the art or what came before. Examples are putting down the one-ahead principle, billets, etc.

Two: Those who try to show their "insideness" by calling Max - "Phil", Banachek - "Steve" or Marc - "Moshe".

Three: Those who who think they are being so smart by continuously coming up with the same old, tired questions such as, "If you were a real mindreader, why would you have someone write anything down?"

Four: Newcomers who think that since they are into mentalism, any pro is obligated to give them any secrets they ask for.

Five: Amateurs who haven't the slightest idea of where the pros have been, what they have done or how many years were spent doing it.


There are many more, of course, but I don't want to ruin my "nice guy" image! Smile

Richard
Ken Dyne
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Richard and all...

I noticed that you began many of your points with "newcomers" and "amateurs", in my head those things annoy me too even when fellow pros do it. I think its down to respect. Respecting the art and the people who make the art what it is. I don't think anyone has the right to call people by there "real" name when they clearly have a performing professional name, noone has any "right" to know any secrets about anyone, if you create something and it fools everyone you CAN keep it to yoruself, even from the pros.

don't know if you agree?

Just my two quid Smile

...i don't know if I have a nice guy image to spoil Smile...

Best,
Kennedy
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BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
Greg Arce
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Richard, I think you've just come up with the 5 Commandments of things done wrong in mentalism... would someone care to add another five or is that enough?

Oh, and I couldn't agree more with your five... as I'm sure Phil, Steve and Moshe would also concur. Smile

Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
Ken Dyne
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6 - "thou shalt not grow a goatie beard"
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
Steve Dela
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--------------------------
On 2005-02-03 04:47, Steve Dela wrote:
This may be because there are technically (read that again before arguing!...Technically) less moves etc. in mentalism and it would be easier for you to catch up to their level of performance. (They are scared of you taking their work).

I have a lot of Mental friends that are always willing to help though.
This may be because my main interest is in the Magic side of our profession.

In Magic
Steve Dela
[/quote]
I disagree with this completely. A mentalist's technique MUST be completely perfect. It must be completely natural. There MUST BE NO HINT that any move of any kind has taken place. Punx could do one-handed shuffles with each hand, without looking at the cards, but he never did it in public, because it made him look like a manipulator. His b****t s***c was so clean that you had no idea it had even taken place. And that's the essence of the whole thing.

------------------------------------------------------

Bill I hate to say this, esspecially to you, but please re read my post, you have interpreted it completely wrong!
Not once do I mention that a mentalists moves should not be perfect!
I simply stated a bare fact that no one could argue with, there are technically less slight of hand moves in mentalism.

Seriously you have picked up on points I have not made!

I also agree with everything Mr Osterlind Smile has said!
Also I have my own mentalism effects, I could release a book...but I am thinking why should I? I am not desperate for money and I have decided I do not want to share my secrets untill I have used them, seems more proffessional that way.

In Magic
Steve Dela
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FFFF
Drewmcadam
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Real names or stage names – and how to refer to them. I know what you’re saying, Richard, and I’ve got to agree. On a related matter, it does cause me embarrassment. When I meet the performer, and have got to know them well enough, I always ask what name they would like me to refer to them by. Invariably the answer is “either”. I always find it confusing when I’m referring to them by one name and their wife is referring to them by another!

(I’m not just talking about mentalists here, but as a reviewer I get the chance to interview and accompany everybody from Alice Cooper (Vincent) to Elton John (Reg). Confused? Me too!

Best wishes,

Drew (AKA kilty short-*ss) – and, no, “Drew” will do fine, in case you’re wondering.
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Well.. I certainly agree that people try to "name-drop" performers real names, but it does get a bit confusing. When you know that someone uses a "stage name" or "pen name" it feels a bit odd to refer to someone other than their real (whatever that means) name. I certainly believe that someone has the right to be called whatever they please. But when their "other" name is common knowledge it gets a bit sticky. You don't want to offend or to presume. No offense to you dual named genuises (seriously!!!). Thanks Drew, if that is your real name Smile
mormonyoyoman
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Having had some of my fellow students (from the early 1970s) continue in the performing arts or in writing, it was inevitable that some of them would hit it...if not "big," then "fairly big." And I got in the habit of asking if they'd rather I call them by their old midwestern name or their newer professional name. (Aside: Only two changed their names, and I rarely can remember those.) I also received the answer of "either."

So naturally, I started calling them "Either."

And I've found that I've been guilty of almost all five of the Osterlind Commandments of Mentalism and Magic. It hardly matters that I intended such behavior as humour, since each attempt fell flat. We'll try to avoid such behavior in the future. (I will also try to avoid such behavior in the past, but that's rather difficult.)

*jeep!
--Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
Jay Are
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I think that the "eager newcomer" exists in both magic and mentalism. It is important to "cut your teeth" onsome of the classics, and pay your dues, not only in our proffesion but many others as well. In this age of the "instant magician" we have to deal with these types of people more frequently. Everyone with a computer, a credit card, and a generally good albeit fleeting interest in magic can become an "ellusionist". Times in our art are changing, so it is more important then ever that we safegaurd our secrets for those who share a true love for what we do.

Just my two sense...
xxx
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