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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
[quote]On 2005-02-06 14:14, MentaThought wrote:
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Are there any videos of Busch performing? Considering that (if memory serves) a Café member once claimed he made a statement to the effect, "My [Busch's] name means money!" and his published works are apparently quite highly esteemed I, for one, would like to see him performing on video some of the effects he's invented/elaborated on in text. There are no commercially available videos of Richard Busch performing his published material. However, I have seen him perform bits of his repertoire in person many times and can attest to the effectiveness of his material and technique. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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David Numen Inner circle 2072 Posts |
It'd be very interesting to see some authors and how they really are in performance. Busch interests me specifically because I find his whole superior tone annoying but he is by no means the only such author.
There does tend to be a trend in Mentalism for amazing creators who are lousy performers. |
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Ian Broadmore Special user 555 Posts |
For once I agree with Bartlewizard!!
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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
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On 2005-02-07 10:54, bartlewizard wrote: Quote:
On 2005-02-07 12:47, Ian Broadmore wrote: I would be interested in knowing who these "amazing" creators are that you two contend are lousy performers. For example, Larry Becker, Max Maven, Lee Earle, Bob Cassidy, Richard Osterlind, Ted Karmilovich, Richard Busch, Docc Hilford, John Riggs, and Mark Strivings are examples of noted creators of both published works and mentalism products, and each are very effective performers. I know because I have personally witnessed many of their performances. On the other hand, I often wonder how well many of the big talkers on the Magic Café and other forums would come across in a real world performing situation. (And I am NOT inferring that either Bartlewizard or Ian Broadmore would necessarily fall into this category). I know that some very prolific writers in this craft were not the greatest performers (Al Mann comes to mind). However, in my own experience, I have found that most of the better thinkers in mentalism are often also some of the better performers. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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Ian Broadmore Special user 555 Posts |
I think certain writers (non performers) are legends in their own minds.I have a video of at least one of the names you mentioned in your post who is worshiped and idolised for his creative thinking. but I'm going out on a limb here and going to be honest and say what I think. His performance lacks charisma, personality and forcefulness and to be frank its downright boring!. Its a commercialy available video , granted it was a few years ago, but the truth is boringgg.As an aside Tomy cooper has legendary status in the Uk as a comedy magician. his legend was that he was really a great magician in real life, well I'm sorry folks I knew tom and he wasnt. he was a lousy magician technically, but a great comedian that passed his sell by date.His legend lives on but if people are brutally honest with themselves and don't follow the heard, you will se what I mean. look beyond the hype and gloss and you will see the reality. Controversial words? no just honesty.
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Menetekel Loyal user 273 Posts |
Ian you are walking on minefields:how you and bartlewizard hope your truth be accepted and seen when most of the performers who will post answers to your thread are pea and tri members and have this kind of unspoken contract that forbid them to speak honestly about their pea friends because honesty would require them to spill out the beans about how many of them are just home performers that cannot stand the spotlights for more than two minutes even if their lives were depending on that. you ask for truth but you will receive none from those groups of friends defending their fragile ego with all their strenght;true there are few exceptions but that just what they are:exceptions and nothing more
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J ack Galloway Inner circle 1309 Posts |
I must agree with Ian and could provide just the writer/performer he writes of.
What I find most amazing is that for all of the talk concerning the advancment of this art? People have a hard time criticaly looking at themselfs. I don't know how many guys I have seen that do not even have proper perfromance cloths. Let alone how to stand, walk and talk properly. I belive that is why Blane was such a hit with the young men in the magic comunity. But once you get a little older the behavioure is not quite as engaging. Cheers Jack |
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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
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On 2005-02-07 14:08, Ian Broadmore wrote: Your opinion, and I am sure a biased one at that. Any of the performers I named in my previous post on their worst day could put on a better show than most of the blowhards on these forums. And their long successful professional lives are testimony to that. Quote:
On 2005-02-07 14:08, Ian Broadmore wrote: I never had the pleasure of witnessing a performance by Tommy Cooper, but more noteworthy commentators than you have held testament to his effectiveness as a magician and entertainer. People like Tommy Cooper become magical legends for a reason. Quote:
On 2005-02-07 14:08, Ian Broadmore wrote: Sounds like sour grapes to me. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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Ian Broadmore Special user 555 Posts |
Phewww and all I asked originally was why in Tim conover never mentioned...and as usual a heated debate starts off topic.Ok I'm not biased at all. I played the video to some non magical but interested friends of mine the resultant coments were that the performance was boring . Unlike you I KNEW Tom Personally so I speak with what I knew as fact, you admit you have never seen him perform but offer critique!. that's like reviewing a book without reading it. I knew tom personally (see my pm to you) why should I have sour grapes???????? Personally I like constructive critism I like my friends to watch my act and say honestly, you suck!!. I don't want them pandering to my ego because I earn shed loads of money doing something I enjoy.I think mysticz your post shows you have missed the point. remember the story of the emporors new clothes. the people were so swept up in the hype and illusion that they could not see (or did not WANT to see the truth). it took a small boy with a childs innocence to realise the emporer did not have any cloths!!. viz the post by bartlewizard some great writers but lousy performers, see through the illusion of your own making, boldly go where Angels fear to tread, cross the Rubicon, stand at the edge and SEE the Reality.
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MagoStevo Elite user 478 Posts |
His client list is a magical thing to achieve for us!!
Never ever have bad thought,you never know who is listening....
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David Numen Inner circle 2072 Posts |
I am going to go out on a limb here...why don't you get a friend not interested in magic to watch some mentalism performers on tape or dvd? My wife and other family members are fairly good barometers and let me tell you only one name repeatedly meets the entertainment standard as far as they are concerned - Osterlind.
Banachek, Maven, Becker, Marc Paul, Jermay - all those names leave my wife cold and I must admit I find them all pretty unentertaining as well. As for the past - T A Waters is renowned in mentalism circles for being a pretty lame performer, and a friend tells me Al Mann wasn't great either. Bob Cassidy I thought was OK on the DVD but my wife didn't like him at all - however I can see what Cassidy could be like with all guns blazing and think he'd be great. Also, the UK and US have different tastes - I think Maven would completely bomb if he tried his live act in the UK because his persona would be laughed at. That said, I am sure some of the above names work well in certain situations but overall I am amazed at how uncomfortable some of them seem to be in front of an audience! The ones that ARE comfortable come across as way to smooth - almost sleazy! Regards, David. |
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MentaThought Special user 615 Posts |
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On 2005-02-08 04:34, bartlewizard wrote: I guess we all have our favorites in mentalism as in everything else. I myself always look forward to watching a select few performers -- namely, (first and foremost!) Kreskin; Banachek; Marc Paul (I like to think of him as "The British Kreskin"), Patick Kuffs, Maven, Derren Brown . . . On the other hand, there may be others not listed above who -- while I may not be such a big fan of their performing -- I may appreciate their creativity and inventiveness in developing new effects and mentalism tools. This thread has reminded me of something I've been thinking about recently as well: who are the more "believable" mentalists? By this I mean, who (and surely we'll all have our own opinions) really comes across to you as possibly really having the gift of mindreading or being an expert in NLP or body language or whatever? There are just some mentalists who, although they may be well-known in the mentalism community as performers and/or creators, just aren't "believable" to me. For example, and notwithstanding the fact that he's been a major creative force in the field for years and the editor of a wonderful journal of mentalism and related video series, I have difficulty "seeing" Lee Earle as a mindreader; or, perhaps I should say, he doesn't fit my idea of the image of what a mentalist *should* look and act like -- he's just not "convincing" to me. I realize, that leaves me vulnerable to the charge of being too narrow-minded as to what a mentalist "should" seem like. But when Earle, Becker, Osterlind and some others perform (and even though I might find their performance entertaining) throughout the performance I'm quite well aware aware that they're accomplishing what they're doing by trickery, and for me that detracts from the experience of watching them perfrom. They just haven't convinced me that they may be able to read minds. Conversely, when a Kreskin, Banachek, Marc Paul or Derren Brown perform due to their individual personas I'm able to approach that "suspension of disbelief" so often spoken about and that makes their performance more entertaining and intriguing for me.
"A good mentalist ... will teach you a miracle because he understands the subtleties ..." -- Banachek
"If this works it'll be BEAUTIFUL!" - The Amazing Kreskin on a stunning effect he performed on his 1970s television series (PS: it worked) |
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Mezmer New user Las Vegas 64 Posts |
Tim Conover and Mac King hung out in our room at the TAOM convention in Houston last year. Tim amazed us for about an hour using a wire hanger cardboard tube as a magic wand and some coins. He was doing Dai Vernon routines that blew us all away. Needless to say Eric Mead had him sign the "WAND" and kept it. I hope he did not EBAY it off....................
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holmes New user 35 Posts |
I agree with Bartlewizard. I can't get too excited about any of the alleged big names either.
However to be fair I always remember what Harry Lorayne wrote once about magicians wives. He said that they weren't really laymen. I am afraid that I have to agree. |
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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts |
I have often read about Tommy Cooper throughout the years and it seems he managed to develop a good comic act with a strong following that led to stage and television success in the U.K. Within the confines of this craft, I would consider that a remarkable achievement.
My point is this. We all have our opinions regarding how good a performer may seem in our own eyes; however, the real achievement for a professional is his acceptance and success in the real world of show business. One individual magician may not prefer the performance style of a Lee Earle or Larry Becker or a Tommy Cooper, for example; but their success as professional entertainers in this craft cannot be ignored or belittled. I admire good performers and always try to learn from their strengths. I have no need for sour grapes. Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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Lior Inner circle 1961 Posts |
Tim was my advisor for my TV show in Israel.
Tim is one of the best magicain/mentalist on the planet Tim is one of the best persons on the planet. Lior (aka Lior)
The Lior Touch
https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 |
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Avrakdavra Loyal user The Pine Tree State, USA 224 Posts |
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On 2005-02-08 04:34, bartlewizard wrote: I've had the same experience with my wife watching mentalists perform: out of the five or six she has seen, she has enjoyed the majority of them but finds Mr. Osterlind the most appealing, leading me to question her as to what his particular appeal is. "Is he the most believeable? Does he most convince you that he has actual supranormal abilities?" "No. But I am not looking to be convinced of real powers--that's not entertainment." "Are his effects the most astounding?" "No. They are clever and amazing at times, and they make me wonder how he could possibly do them, but some of the other guys have great effects as well." "What then?" "He's entertaining. He's engaging. He seems like a genuinely nice guy who is thrilled to be sharing these things with the audience. I think I'd enjoy watching him tell stories, read the news, or try selling me a vaccuum cleaner. His likeability gives him an edge, moreso than any particular air of mystery or power." A bit dissappointing (for me at least) to acknowledge that much of a mentalist's audience appeal boils down to "mere" charisma and the perception of genuineness, but, for what it's worth, that is one layperson's take on the matter. Bruce |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
This thread is about Tim Conover! Let me tell you Tim has been a friend of mine for many, many years. He is a wonderful entertainer and a wonderful human being! If you knew him as a friend you would understand just what a good person he is. He is also an incredible innovator and the mentalism world in general suffers because he does not put out his material. Maybe one day he will and we can only hope.
If you ever get a chance to see Tim perform live, grab it! Talk about engaging, he will engage you like you won't believe. And like most of the really greats, he is down to earth and not full of himself. Richard |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
My wife tells me she prefers Osterlind as opposed to other mentalists, just as well as bartweasel's avrakdavra's wives say they like him best also.
I think it's besause he comes across as a nice friendly guy and not too sexy which can have ad adverse effect on wives, due to ovaries and things. Me? The exact opposite. Wives tell their men they don't like me (a lie). Yours in honesty and general knowledge, Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Avrakdavra Loyal user The Pine Tree State, USA 224 Posts |
Mr. Osterlind,
It's certainly nice to hear of someone good (i.e. Tim Conover) who is also doing so well. Thanks also for helping to confirm my wife's amazing powers as a judge of human nature (but please don't try to sell her a vacuum cleaner). Bruce |
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