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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
Kondini,
If you meant elaborate on the Donald Turnipseed reference. He's the 19 year old who made a left in the path of James Dean's Porsche Spider. Mick, The other punching incidents ("three different occasions") don't pan out. In Bell's book, his investigation into the one in a hotel lobby while Houdini was reading a newspaper deadends. It is a family story told to a child for which Don Bell could find no corroboration. Kalush thinks it happened. I can't find any there there. The other two punches--supposedly at McGill--are intriguing. A man named Bolton who was at the lecture--let him tell it: "Let me emphasize that I seem to remember Gordon Whitehead being present. He had a funny, loping way of walking and I still picture him crossing the room where the Houdini lecture took place but to be honest, it may have been at a different time or it may have been a similar crowd of people in another place. "Another thing - I had assumed that the dressing room incident had occurred at His Majesty's Theatre whereas you tell me that it was at the Princess. This shows how inaccurate distant memories, both first hand and hearsay, can be. Again, I don't remember seeing or recognizing Professor Tait. I would have recognized him at that time but, now, I can't remember what he looked like. If he was there and said there was no scuffle, then I think he is more credible than my memory of a scuffle. I was about thirty feet away and may have seen a stumble or other unrelated event. "I did not recognize anyone except Houdini in the general area of the event which I took to be a scuffle and I did not see a blow being landed. I did not know or know of Jack Pickleman or Sam Smilovitz. Jacques Price's name is familiar." First of all, this does speak to memory--how it works or doesn't. I believe Prof. Tait introduced Houdini at the McGill lecture and Bolton is quite candid when he says: "I don't remember seeing or recognizing Professor Tait. I would have recognized him at that time but, now, I can't remember what he looked like." Bolton's description of Whitehead's walk is interesting. As you know, Don Bell turned up some evidence that Gordon Whitehead suffered a severe head injury when a falling beam struck him at the Eletrical factory where he was a "student worker." Bell can't determine whether this occurred before or after Whitehead knew Houdini, but, supposedly--if it is true--he had a steel plate in his head. It seems obvious to me that Houdini befriended Gordon Whitehead (as he had many young people. Leslie Guest and David Bamberg come to mind). But, the scuffle that Bolton believes he remembers seeing as Houdini left the room. One of the witnesses to the McGill lecture said the kids crowded the stage during the lecture to get close to Houdini. I was in a crowd at my brother's college that did this with Bobby Kennedy. When Kennedy finished his speech and Q&A, he started to make his way back to the campaign bus and the people crowded around him to get close, to see him, to touch him, that it took 45 minutes for him and his aides to press their way through the crowd to the campaign bus--a distance of less than 200 feet. I believe something similar happened at McGill. What if, as Houdini worked his way through the crowd, he let someone punch him in the stomach. Barney Nusselman, for instance--(even though the Barney Nusselman lead went nowhere). What if Gordon Whitehead heard about it and wanted to "test" Houdini's stomach muscles as Barney had? Now Don Bell's book is full of leads that went nowhere and what ifs, but, you have to separate them from what can be substantiated. This is the problem with those four pages of theory Dick and Dorothy have put up. They have taken things from Bell's book that he says went nowhere and woven them into their theory. They call Gordon Whitehead "a religious nut" and there is not a word of evidence in Bell's book to back that up. They quote Ken Silverman saying there was no record of Houdini letting anyone but Whitehead punch him in the stomach, but, they don't mention that Ken then said, "But it sounds like something Houdini would do." |
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John Cox Elite user Studio City, CA 494 Posts |
Pat, are you still planning on putting your thoughts up on a page at your own website? I'd like a place I can link to it. Right now, it's spread all over several threads, and I'm not sure where to send my readers. (If not, this might be the best thread, I think.)
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
Please remember Don Bell wrote professionally. He spent more time and travel for at least ten years to research that week in Montreal and its aftermath than all the other writers put together. That includes Gibson, Cannel, Ernst, Gresham, Christopher, Randi/Sugar, Henning, Reyonlds, Silverman, Culliton, Sloman/Kalush. Don Bell not only talked the talk, but he walked the walk.
So as not to be redundant I will only reply on what I have not repllied on other pages on the Café, or on Wild About Houdini, or Houdini.org. No CAPS this time, it takes too much work Pat says.... Quote:
"Houdini knew Whitehead. He introduced him to the other two boys, Smilovitch and Price." Houdini knew Whitehead because Whiteheqd was following Houdini all over town. Stalking his prey. Pat says.... Quote:
"He seemed to like Whitehead." That is because the great Houdini we believe was fooled by Whitehead, possibly because of pride. Pat says.... Quote:
"Houdini, Smilovitch and Whitehead had all boxed." Where is this documented as fact? This has proved false. Whitehead's own brother said Whitehead did not box as far as he knew. BELL Page 94, 95 Pat says.... Quote:
"That's when Whitehead made the mistake that cost Houdini his life." Our opinion is that it was no mistake, it was on purpose. Others, including several in Houdini's family felt this way. Pat says.... Quote:
"Whitehead did not realize he had hurt Houdini. Whitehead said Houdini said "Come on" before each of the two or three additional punches." According to Whitehead's affidavit Houdini did not say"come on" Houdini said "Why/, hit me." I do not think the other two boys mentioned Houdini inviting more punches. Pat says.... Quote:
"She said Houdini's first words on coming out of the anesthesia were "Don't let them blame that poor kid, he didn't know." We covered this on another thread and elsewhere" Pat says.... Quote:
"They call Gordon Whitehead "a religious nut" and there is not a word of evidence in Bell's book to back that up." We covered this on another thread and elsewhere with many references from Bell's book to back up our beliefs. Pat says.... Quote:
They quote Ken Silverman saying there was no record of Houdini letting anyone but Whitehead punch him in the stomach, but, they don't mention that Ken then said, "But it sounds like something Houdini would do." Ken Silverman never said that to us the several times we asked hie about a record of Houdini getting punched in the stomach before that week in Montreal, to the best of our memory. Ken Silverman probably said it to Pat, when Pat was checking on the truth of our story. Ken is a great guy, I have known him since he was 15 years old. I think, possibly, he just didn't want to hurt Pat's feelings or burst his bubble when he said,"But it sounds like something Houdini would do." That verifies nothing. If I said to Ken I know Houdini ate oatmeal three times a day and he answered with,"that sounds like something Houdini would do", what would it mean. Nothing Pat says.... Quote:
"I'm putting up a web page about what actually happened. WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!" We do not think anybody truly knows beyond doubt, but I think we are getting down to it with our Dick Brookz/Dorothy Dietrich Houdini Death Theory, but if you know "WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!" PLEASE PUT IT UP! Over and out Dick Brookz & Dorothy Dietrich http://houdini.org/houdinimurdered.html
Check out http://HoudiniOpoly.com
Houdini Museum Tour & Magic Show. Only building in the world dedicated to Houdini. http://Houdini.org http://HoudiniDisplays.com http://PsychicTheater.com Scranton, Pa (570) 342-5555 "The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.) We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM. |
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
Ken Silverman didn't say "(punch me in the stomach) sounds like something Houdini would do to me" "so as not to burst Pat's bubble or hurt his feelings."
He said it in an interview. Do your homework. You say things like that, it makes you sound like some kind of moron. You people are spreading b*llsh*t like fertilizer. BUT GO RIGHT AHEAD. NOBODY CAN STOP YOU. You're theory is not just full of holes, it's full of lies. It's a crackpot theory. Dick, Dorothy, how do you do it? Do you feed each other's insanity like the Quaids? |
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Mick Hanzlik Special user Mick Hanzlik 588 Posts |
I have just noticed the title of this thread....Who Killed Houdini (Mick Hanzlik)
It's a lie! I didn't do it! |
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
Dear Pat;
Again you miss the point. For you to say Ken Silverman said "it sounds like something Houdini would do," as some kind of proof that Houdini did this or that is foolish. For some reason in these discussions of our honest and well researched opinions, your posts are full of personal insults, which, if you notice, we refuse to answer. We will not take the bait. We have remained respectful of you, which you richly deserve. You also seem to want to minimize Don Bell's 10 years of unparalleled excellent research, along with other pieces of information... Maybe it speaks to the validity of our Dick Brookz/Dorothy Dietrich Houdini Death Theory. There is more information and points we have not even put out yet that speaks to our theory as well. You seem set in your ways, and refuse to accept the possibility of any other peoples thoughts being possible, so you attack. Never a way to "win" discussion. If there is one thing we have learned, it is to never believe anything about Houdini when you first hear it. Like that he always took punches to the stomach, or that he was in great health when he arrived in Montreal, or that the punches by some major kook were an honest accident, or what it meant when Houdini said to Sophie Rosenblatt, "He didn't know". D&D
Check out http://HoudiniOpoly.com
Houdini Museum Tour & Magic Show. Only building in the world dedicated to Houdini. http://Houdini.org http://HoudiniDisplays.com http://PsychicTheater.com Scranton, Pa (570) 342-5555 "The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.) We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM. |
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
In a newspaper interview, Kenneth Silverman said (I may be paraphrasing slightly--doesn't change the meaning) "There is no record of Houdini inviting people to punch him in the stomach--but it sounds like something he would do."
I quoted him as saying that. So, Dick and Dorothy counter: "Ken Silverman never said that to us the several times we asked him about a record of Houdini getting punched in the stomach before that week in Montreal, to the best of our memory. Ken Silverman probably said it to Pat, when Pat was checking on the truth of our story. Ken is a great guy, I have known him since he was 15 years old. I think, possibly, he just didn't want to hurt Pat's feelings or burst his bubble when he said, 'But it sounds like something Houdini would do.' That verifies nothing. If I said to Ken I know Houdini ate oatmeal three times a day and he answered with,"that sounds like something Houdini would do", what would it mean. Nothing." Dick, Dorothy, why did you have to ask Ken several times about "a record of Houdini getting punched in the stomach before that week in Montreal?" Didn't you believe what he told you the first time you asked? So, instead of checking AskAlexander to see when and where Ken said "it sounds like something Houdini would do," Dick comes up with a THEORY, that is: "Ken is a great guy, I have known him since he was 15 years old. I think, possibly, he just didn't want to hurt Pat's feelings or burst his bubble when he said, 'But it sounds like something Houdini would do.'" Dr. Silverman and I have never discussed the subject, and he can't possibly hurt my feelings and he can "burst my bubble" on any subject at all, anytime, and it won't bother me in the slightest. I have great respect for him as a guy and a biographer. I haven't seen Ken or spoken to him in 15 years. But, it was a good THEORY. I think your theory as to to the facts surrounding Houdini's death has been discussed and defended by you quite enough on three separate threads on this forum. You've placed links to your site at least 13 times on these three threads. Everybody should have gotten the idea by now. By the way, I thought it was unethical for Dorothy "expose" the Mirror Handcuff escape on the Travel Channel. Mick, you'd be interested in this: Dorothy says Houdini got a duplicate key from Albert Harmsworth. Well, that solves that. And, Mick, don't try to deny you killed Houdini. Everybody knows, he was struck in the stomach by a locksmith backstage at the Empire theatre in Northampton. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Dick, I'm trying to follow you here. Are you suggesting that Whitehead intended to kill HH in a premeditated manner, and that his weapon of choice was a fist to the stomach?
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
Dick Brookzz here responding to Mr. Culliton...
Pat says... Quote:
By the way, I thought it was unethical for Dorothy "expose" the Mirror Handcuff escape on the Travel Channel. Since you were not at the shoot you have no way to know that that was taken out of context. Dorothy proposed, amongst several others, that Houdini could have reaffirmed that the key was locked up in the newspaper building and Houdini, being the lock picker he was, could have gone in late at night and secretly gotten a look at the key and even made a copy of it. It was then that she said she believed Houdini had the key. Knowing what we know now about Bramah locks, the most logical explanation is that "somehow" Houdini "magically" figured out or managed to get a copy of the key, or made a "pick" that would do the job.. Again like at the events prior, during and after the Princess Theater confrontation, you were not there when she taped. Dorothy never mentioned Albert Harmsworth. Not sure where you are going with this one. Please do not try to open a chasm between us and Mick Hanzlik who we have always considered a friend as we do you. Chance says... Quote:
Dick, I'm trying to follow you here. Are you suggesting that Whitehead intended to kill HH in a premeditated manner, and that his weapon of choice was a fist to the stomach? My guess from your question you have not followed the other links that Mr. Culliton brings up so disparagingly, on the Café, Wild About Harry and The Houdini Museum about our Dick Brookz/Dorothy Dietrich Houdini Death Theory . I would help you out and place them here again, but it would upset Mr. Culliton, who by the way has said he was through with this subject. I NEVER EVER said Whitehead intended to KILL HH. We believe for various reasons explained elsewhere and yet to be revealed that he was a very unbalanced person stalking Houdini, who had decided to punish or hurt Houdini. Sorry but you will have to search for the links. I do not want to be redundant and go through them again. Dick
Check out http://HoudiniOpoly.com
Houdini Museum Tour & Magic Show. Only building in the world dedicated to Houdini. http://Houdini.org http://HoudiniDisplays.com http://PsychicTheater.com Scranton, Pa (570) 342-5555 "The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.) We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
OK, I have a follow-up question: Do you believe that Whitehead struck HH at all in the dressing room, whether deliberately or not?
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
Chance.. I cannot answer these questions one at a time till you read the various posts
In Good Faith. D&D
Check out http://HoudiniOpoly.com
Houdini Museum Tour & Magic Show. Only building in the world dedicated to Houdini. http://Houdini.org http://HoudiniDisplays.com http://PsychicTheater.com Scranton, Pa (570) 342-5555 "The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.) We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM. |
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magicusb Inner circle 1135 Posts |
Pat says...
Quote:
By the way, I thought it was unethical for Dorothy "expose" the Mirror Handcuff escape on the Travel Channel. I consider this a low and unfounded attack by Mr. Culliton who I always thought was smarter than that. I guess that puts her in the company of other "exposers" of Houdini secrets that include Walter B. Gibson, Bernard Ernst and Beatrice Houdini, who gave Walter B. Gibson Houdini's secret notes (We have another bombshell on that later that relates to this), Cannell, Dr. Morris N. Young, possibly Pat Culliton, (The Key and other works.), and countless other writers on magic and escapes. Thanks for putting her in such good company, I personally think she deserves it. Dick Brookz
Check out http://HoudiniOpoly.com
Houdini Museum Tour & Magic Show. Only building in the world dedicated to Houdini. http://Houdini.org http://HoudiniDisplays.com http://PsychicTheater.com Scranton, Pa (570) 342-5555 "The truth shall make you free, but first it will make you angry." -Robert Ingersoll-Atheist (on the mind of Houdini when he died.) We are thrilled we were able to bring The Grim Game to the world! Thanks TCM. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Actually Dick, I have.
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
"Walter B. Gibson, Bernard Ernst and Beatrice Houdini, who gave Walter B. Gibson Houdini's Cannell, Dr. Morris N. Young, and Patrick Culliton" did not purport to expose magic unsolicited on TV.
All of those gentlemen, and Mrs. Houdini sold books within the rules established by the Society of American Magicians, And I, Culliton, published 278 books intended for the magic community only. The comparison does not work. On the brighter side, Norm Bigelow, who I've never met, just hates me over all this. |
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
TV? Bosh! Some of the people in your post weren't alive when TV came along. They'd have been there in a minute, had they seen either profit or notoriety from it.
You seem to forget that H exposed things, too. Had he been alive now, he most certainly would have, either for profit or to get at somebody he felt was a competitor. He exposed his own material on occasion. So let's get off that boat. It's absurd.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
It's something I've never done. I've written about Houdini, lectured on him, appeared on TV talking about him and I've never exposed to the public. As a Magic Castle member, I'm essentially forbidden to expose to the public.
Now, explaining that Houdini could not possibly have picked the lock in that time so he obtained a key from the publisher of the London Daily Mirror absolutely cheapens the art. Jim Steinmeyer advised me a long time ago how to avoid exposing on TV. You answer a how did he do it question with: He studied locks all his life. His mother apprenticed him to a locksmith when he was twelve and he practiced picking locks until he had a clear understanding of how to open every lock he encountered. And that's all the public has a right to know. If a civilian feels motivated to learn how Houdini did it, he should go to the library. Gratuitous exposure on TV is not okay. And I don't care if Houdini exposed things too. I never said Dorothy was any better or worse than Houdini. It's never right. |
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
I have great regard for Jim Steinmeyer, though I've never met him. The man is a genius at design, and a wonderful writer. I've heard it argued that he committed acts of exposure, simply by publishing "Hiding the Elephant". So what?
Some responses to audience questions about escaping cuffs are more obscure than others. We each come up with our own. To say H used a key, only shows the depths of his duplicity as a performer. We tend to admire a scoundrel, and H was one. To say H used a key, in no way cheapens this art form. In this time, most people know you open a lock using either a key or a pick, or have a gaffed device. If there's another possibility, I'd love to know it. Oh, yeah...dislocating, I almost forgot that one. Look at YouTube (a form of library), or Brian Brushwood's Scam School. There are a lot of "how to" videos. With Google, you can find incredible references. And MANY of the exposures are from people who have signed their pledges to keep secrets. But then, I'm of the school that says more magic is exposed daily by mediocre (and I'm being complimentary) magicians than on any TV show. If you do a good show, exposure isn't a problem. I doubt that many people care about the Mirror Cuffs. They're a totally obscure note in modern history and culture, except within this very small community.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
I'm old school about exposure. Around the Magic Castle, just about everyone takes a hardline.
Ali got his life membership revoked for exposing after many many warnings. Houdini would be in front of the ethics committee at the very least. Dorothy wouldn't be in trouble at all. |
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Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
We agree, for the most part. There are many good reasons not to expose.
But I see a line to cross in exposing psychics and their ilk. I'm completely in favor of that.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
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houdinisghost Loyal user 287 Posts |
Randi spoke at the Castle Monday night, 83, fresh from a trans-ocean flight, not to mention some recent chemotherapy.
He was beyond Mensa brilliant. Entertaining and informative. Max maven was the interviewer. Great clips, particularly the psychic surgery on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. |
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