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PaulEverson
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A little while ago I drifted into card counting and was wondering if any other mentalists hit the casinos once in a while with this skill?
Ken Dyne
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I worked on thre technique for a bit and got reasonably okay at it. However I never used it, either in a casino or in any kind of real performance. I'm afraid, yet again I prefer to cheat that too. I make it look liek I can card count when in reality I am not using this technique at all.

Have you, and to what success?

Best,
Kennedy
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
PaulEverson
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I do ok at it. But like most things you need money to make money, if I had three grand to spare and a month off work I should be able to make some serious money at it.

I'm interested to see if there are any magic/mentalism/suggestive techniques that could increase my edge that the world of professional blackjack players don't know about - and therefore have never made it into the books.

Specifically - After the croupier is finished shuffling the decks of cards ( typically six ) and they've been cut by a player the dealer will place a blank card usually around two decks from the face, and when that card is reached the dealer will shuffle again.

Without going into how card countng works it's very much in the counters interest to have that blank card as near to the back of the deck as possible, so that more cards are dealt before the shuffle.

Can anyone think of any psychological/suggestive methods for influencing the dealers placing of this card? I'm a reasonably experienced hypnotist and mentalist and am not unfamiliar with Derrenesque pattern interupts etc. but can't think of a method for this one....
ThomasBerger
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I used to be part of a counting group in the 80's.
Problem is the edge is soooo small, you need 10 guys with 10 grand each to give you leverage.

Re advice for lower cut-card...
talk to dealer, drink alohol---
in other words, have an act that makes you look like you have money to lose ie
a typical gambler.

Be aware, against 6 decks, you are wasting your time sitting to play (by yourself), especially if the cut-card is down at 2 decks.

Use Wonging technique.

If you do not have shuffling machines at your casino, your biggest edge with come from shuffle tracking ie modified gilbreath principle wher you know which cards will be above which cards after shuffling.

Shuffle-tracking software is available to practise with.
Profits from shuffle tracking far outstrip counting.

The latest exploit to make several million $ was a group called the MIT Group.
They were from MIT and used counting with Ace-keying which is a form of shuffle tracking.

There are also some diabolical technques like "buying" a hand from a civilian if he doesn't know the value of it and you are getting say a 15% edge.
You know what you can afford to pay for the hand.

Read the latest book by James Grosjean to make your eyeballs boggle.

Tom
PaulEverson
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Cheers Tom, all good stuff. I only ever Wong, and that is, of course, the problem with influencing the cut card - as I won't be sat down playing at that point ( unless of course in tracking the shuffle it looks like a good idea to play off the start of the shoe )

And I've never heard of James Grosjean, I will see what I can find by him

Many thanks
Stephen Long
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Anyone interested in this thread should read Bringing Down the House, by Ben Mezrich. It's a (true) story about the MIT Group that Tom referred to.

It's a great read.
Hello.
PaulEverson
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It certainly is - great book
Loz
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There was an excellent Horizon documentary on the MIT group a while back. Funny thing was the guy who worked out the fundamentals of the counting technique they used had given up the card counting and went into the stock exchange. He was being interviewed on a very large yacht - wonder if he's found a system there?
Logan Five
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Most blackjack card counting systems are based on a random deck. However, if the deck isn't random to begin with..the results you are going to get are going to be inacurate. Sure, there are auto-shufflers which will deal a random game..however as the above posts state the percentage isn't that heavy in your favor when the deck/decks do go positive.

Most blackjack card counting systems are worthless IMHO and sold to suckers hoping for a quick hit. Casinos will not let you "Wong it" anymore those days are LONG gone. The MIT book..I couldn't read it past 3 chapters.
Self concept is destiny..
ThomasBerger
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"Most blackjack card counting systems are worthless IMHO...."

Very easy to prove--
go to http://www.qfit.com/

there is state of the art simulation software that lets you run 250 million hands
in a few minutes and adds up your wins and losses.
Plug in your rules and count system, run the simulation.
That is the only way you will know what you win rate is.
It's not even a debate.

Plenty of other places have similation and shuffle tracking software too.

Counting has nothing to do with sections of the deck being random/non random, but is based on the ratio of small cards to large cards remaining in the shoe.

Wonging is still possible in large casinos, the Sydney one has well over 100 tables.
Variations of team play, specifically, the Ken Uston "gorilla plays" is still used in team work.

There are guys playing baised roulette wheels too--a Hungerian syndicate was banned from Sydney Casino after winning a lot of maoney.

Ditto with video poker machines--when the payouts jackpot higher that the probability of an event happening, syndicates look out and play them.

Ditto with Pai Gow--this game was closed down permanently in the Sahara and Sands Hotels in Vegas because there was a way to beat it, yet it is still available in many casinos, including the Sydney one.

Wherever there is an edge, there is someone exploiting it.

Re the comment most about most systems are worthless--
Cassidy quotes science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon saying that
95% of Science Fiction is crap--
But then again 95% of anything is crap.

Cheers.
Tom
Logan Five
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"Counting has nothing to do with sections of the deck being random or non- random.."

The whole reason that the deck is non-random in the first place is to prevent the running count from going positive. There is a reason the casinos on a single deck game change decks every hour.

" Wonging it is possible in large casinos, the Sydney one has well over a hundred tables.."

I've never been to Sydney..so I can't comment on that. In Reno, S. Lake Tahoe, LV, tribal casinos in CA.. you will draw major steam if you go in mid-shoe with no prior action. Or if you go in on a big + count with no prior action.

" There are guys playing biased roulette wheels too..a Hungerian syndicate.."

Just curious, are you refering to the folks that had a laser in their cell phone that measured the speed of the ball & the reverse speed of the wheel i.e a computerized scanner to calculate where the ball will likely drop? They could have done that on any roulette wheel. Or, are you referring to a dealer signature? Which is impossiable.

"Whenever there is an edge, there is someone exploting it."

Your 100% correct! Shuffle tracking, clump tracking etc are valid means to gain an edge. However, just using a count system as a strategy in blackjack will leave you high & dry. Just MHO. Oh.. by the way I really like your website! Kool!

Best,
MP
Self concept is destiny..
domclarke
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Interesting thread. Tom - could you advise on the name of the latest James Grosjean book? When you say it makes your "eyes boggle" - are you referring to the complexity of what he is saying?

Cheers.
DC
ThomasBerger
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Dom
See here for the book and excerpts--
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/bctoc.htm

The reason he makes your eyes water is because no-one has ever published off-the- wall techniques like this guy.

He has come up with lateral thinking concepts to look for an edge,
that blow you away. He is accomplished in mathematics and programming and backs up what he says with charts and stats. But it is advanced stuff.
Read his scavenger blackjack excerpt for a flavour.

Read some of his excerpts here--
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/TOClibrary.html

Mindphantom--
Check out the latest biased roulette play books--

The biased wheel handbook by Mark Billings and Brent Fredrickson.
Comes with software to statisically analyses results.
Superb.
No external computers, lasers etc used.

Also, read Russell Barnharts book, Beating the Wheel for a chronicle of
the last 100 years of biased wheel play, with descriptions of the major syndicates etc. No computers required.

Physics students used computers and described it in the Eudaeonic Pie.
The idea was fist proposed by Professor Thorp, the developer of the first count system in the 60's. But formulas similar to NASA to account for orbiting etc--the idea was to predict a segment of the wheel the ball lands after it has been spun. It is "clocked" with computers and a slowing down curve applied.
This has nothing to do with biased wheels.
Or dealer signature which is myth and fairytale.


The biased wheel play I was talking about had nothing to do with external devices.
Read the Billings book for more info.

"The whole reason that the deck is non-random in the first place is to prevent the running count from going positive. There is a reason the casinos on a single deck game change decks every hour. "

If you post that above statement at a reputable blackjack forum such as
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com and anyone makes sense of that, I would be happy to apologise to you, and send you $100 cheque for your trouble.

No offense--but this is nonsense and makes no sense whatsoever.
Prevent the count going positive??
The only way you can do that is to have a counting dealer then shuffle up on a positive count!

The count is a function of the RATIO of small cards to large cards--the order of the deck CANNOT be determined by counting, only shuffle tracking techniques.

Changing a deck is because of warp play and markings.
How do you relate that to randomness??

I own all the software I discussed earlier, and am able to run simulations on any casino/game with any rules etc.

This site witll give you the latest info about counts --
http://www.bjmath.com/main.htm

Reno and Tahoe are not the casinos to play in to get the best playing conditions and most advantageous rules. Vegas has far better rules. The Tommy Hyland syndicate made a lot of $ as do many others still do.

Sorry if this is boring to most of the mentalists.
I will get off my soapbox now and shut up.

MindPhantom....I think we agree to disagree.
Thanks for your comments about my website.
Cheers.
Tom
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