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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » What is the best stack to learn where a card is named and I know the position? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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landmark
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Just curious--if you don't have to show the deck is shuffled, why not just use New Deck Order and a false shuffle or two?


Jack Shalom
Jordini
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Here's what I would reccomend:

Use Si Stebbins (very very simple). Show the deck (will looked very well mixed) then do one faro, and here's what you will have: AAAA 4444 7777 etc, and you will be able to easily find any card.
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Daegs
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Guys, here is what this is for(for those of you who just didn't read the thread or don't understand):

Angelo has an effect where any named card will rise from a cased deck.

He can show the deck compleltly fair before casing the deck.

Instead of showing the deck in NDO, he'd rather show it in a random order but still be able to know which position needs to rise for the correct named card.

Therefore, any shuffling is not needed, and stacks like si stebbins won't work because he needs to know the position of any card instantly.


This is why I recommend Joyal's Six Hour Memorized deck.... the best solution.


And for those of you that haven't, check out his Card Rise... sounds very good.
Hideo Kato
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As I posted, you can know the location as soon as the selection is made if you use Reverse Si Stebbins Stack. (Z x 4 + X) can be calculated less than one second.

BTW, can you show the deck before rising selection? Maybe Angelo wiishs to show the deck after rising.

Hideo Kato
jbadman
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Well... first, the comments about Stebbins being no good because a card position takes time to calculate is not entirely correct. Check out Steven Youell's manuscript on 'The Hacker Stack' for more information; makes great reading. I believe it's available via Cogitations subscription currently.

Secondly... Angelo, if this is for a commercial incarnation of your effect then I suggest you select a stack that is either already extremely popular or a stack that can be learned extremely easily. To this end, I guess either Tamariz or Aronson for the most popular or Joyal for something quickly remembered.

Jamie.
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Angelo Carbone
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Ok thanks for the feedback all.

Ian: Glad you are still getting mileage out of Out of Order Smile

Hideo: Yes I would like to show the cards mixed up before I do my cards rise. I can show them mixed up afterwards too but I choose not to. As for the release of Notion of Motion, it has been on sale for over 10 years, I just choose not to publically advertise it because of the amount of work that goes into making each deck. I just try to leave it at word of mouth which works fine for me.

landmark: I do need or rather would like to show the deck shuffled prior to my rise. All I said was that the deck cannot be shuffled. Smile

Daegs: Thank you for clarifying my initial request in my first post to those that did not understand it. Smile

Jamie: Hey nice to hear from you. The stacked deck version of my card rise is for personal use only. I sell my card rise in numerical order only. If someone wants me to make it up in their preference of stack that is fine with me. Maybe I should mention that on my site.

So....

....there are so many possible stacks and am getting a little confused and overwhelmed with the reccomendations Smile I am interested possibly in the Joyal and QuickStack versions. Possibly even the reverse sti stebbins. So will decide between these three.

I do thank everyone for their help and advice. Much appreciated!

One final thought.....I have always performed my card rise for the last 10 years by showing the deck in numerical order before casing it and having a card named and making it rise. Some have suggested to me it would be nice if the deck appeared to be mixed up rather than in order. Do you think having the deck mixed up makes it more impressive? Natural?

What say you? Mixed or in order?

Thanks

Angelo
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Quote:
On 2005-02-13 16:01, Jordini wrote:
Here's what I would reccomend:

Use Si Stebbins (very very simple). Show the deck (will looked very well mixed) then do one faro, and here's what you will have: AAAA 4444 7777 etc, and you will be able to easily find any card.


TWO faro's to get to your ending position - a small thing, I know...

Best, PSC
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:

I didn't see this confusion, but I skimmed some of the replies. In the case of the Joyal book, certainly it doesn't take six hours to learn the rules, but rather to learn the stack itself (actually, I found six hours to be a high estimate). Each card is associated with a stack number, and his technique for learning includes going both from the card to the stack number and vice versa.
His "attending issues" seemed very well defined and minimal, and as a result, I didn't find anyone's suggestion "random," though, of course, reasonable minds will disagree.



On 2005-02-13 11:47, ddyment wrote:
Further, people confuse the issue of how the stack is initially learned -- mnemonics (Tamariz, Aronson, etc.), rules (Joyal, Matt), algorithms (Harding, Dyment, etc.) with the issue of whether the stack is memorized or not. There are examples of this in the above postings. It's misleading to compare, say, an Aronson stack that has actually been memorized, with a Joyal stack in which only rules have been learned, but the stack has not yet been memorized. I've written an essay on the topic of Full-Deck Stacks that covers all of these topics and more. Whichever solution you eventually choose, making a decision based on careful consideration of the attending issues, rather than the random opinions of others, is likely your best bet.

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Jon Allen
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Firstly, I have just learned the Joyal Stack. It's pretty good and I don't know how far away I was from six hours!

As for ordered or random, I remember Dan Harlan commenting on this issue for Cardtoon. Whetehr it's relevent for your effect I don't know Smile

The effect is of a card rising out of the deck. This is impossible whether the cards are ordered or not. I feel that it *would* be more impressive if the cards were shuffled then you did a deck switch. This would be simple if the cardbox were in your pocket. HAve the deck shuffeld then go to your pockets looking for the box. Switch the deck in your pocket, bring the box out and case it. Now they have "examined" the cards and shuffled them. There can't be anything wrong with them, can there?
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Nick Pudar
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Angelo,

I agree with others that the specific stack you use is not relevant. My strong recommendation is that since you will be learning a stack anyway, why not learn one that has other features built in? There is some pretty devastating stuff that you can do with a memorized deck (Paisa23 mentioned "Everybody's Lazy -- one of my favorite!). Learning a great stack will not only meet your current needs, but it will also prepare you for some jaw-dropping stuff when you want to dip into the exciting mem-deck space. (Aronson, Joyal, Tamariz, Close, etc.)

Thanks to all for the mention of StackView. I haven't mentioned anything about it lately. I've been a busy beaver in what little spare time I have in programming the next version. A few months ago I thought I'd be done by about this time, but alas, I still think I've got a few more months to go. There are a lot of very cool features that I'm adding this round. Normally, I would not mention progress on an upgrade, but I'm getting closer to being finished -- in telling you about it, I'm stepping up the pressure on my self.

Back to coding...

Nick
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Shane Wiker
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The stack you use really doesn't matter, but I prefer the Mnemonica Stack.

Shane Wiker
Larry Davidson
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Quote:
On 2005-02-13 19:47, Angelo M Carbone wrote:
What say you? Mixed or in order?


Mixed, not because "in order" will lead laymen to conclude how you made the card rise, but because it may lead at least some of them to conclude how you knew where the card was. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't imagine a compelling argument against adding that layer of deception.
Phaedrus
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If you're really interested in getting into memorized stack magic, you should go to Aronson's webpage. He has a .pdf file containing his thoughts on memorized stacks (not just the Aronson stack) that is essential reading. He also has a few effects listed for those who have already memorized the Aronson stack. By the way, the website that ddyment created is absolutely brilliant: if you want a good overview of stacks and some knowledgeable comparisons of the most popular systems out there, this is the place.
Hideo Kato
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Angelo Carbone is not interested in momeorized satck magic.
He only wishes to do his rising card with mixed cards.

Hideo Kato
Steven Youell
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I use a memorized Si Stebbins Stack which allows me the following
advantages:

1) I can get into it from new deck order in less than 30 seconds
2) I have a cyclical stack and Mathematical calculations are possible.

Getting into it from NDO is not a small thing. If you're going to
memorize a stack for one trick, it makes sense to memorize a stack
that will have advantages in OTHER tricks that you might want to
perform in the future.

I have a PDF on my website called "The Hacker Stack" and I think
you'll find it highly useful. The PDF is a free download, so you
have nothing to lose.

Steven Youell
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