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TOBIAS Loyal user Seattle Magic 221 Posts |
1)First mention of the Classic Force?_________
2)First mention of both passes the classic and Herman?_________ 3)Which Books did these Downs change, Lepaul instaneous change come from?_________ 4)Arthur Buckley principles and deception is the where the first write up of the muscle pass was?_________ 5)Where was the first idea for coin on shoulder come from?_________ 6)What was the first Dice routine at the finger tips?_________ 7)Who came up with the first signature transfer from two card to one, gaffed or not?_________ 8)Eddie T? came up with the Hindu Pop out?_________ 9)Where was the first watch steal in print?_________ 10)Where was the Kelly bottom placement first written up. 11)Where was the first triumph wrote?_________ 12)Where was the first slop shuffle triumph wrote?_________ 13)Who Published the first Spoon Bend?_________ Thanks for the help!!!!
Be true to your art, and it will be true to you
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Some of those questions might be good to test for admissions to advanced topics sections.
How can folks NOT have books like "Stars of Magic" if they are doing "Triumph"? How can folks consider themselves card men, much less believe they are in a position to invent NEW material without knowing about the Ouvette master move? Have a look in the Sachs book, the Downs books, The Stars of Magic and some of the other material published long ago for answers to those and other questions. You'd be amazed at what you find in the Hofzinser and "Erdnase" books.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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TOBIAS Loyal user Seattle Magic 221 Posts |
I hope this was not an attack towards me?
I just want to know if what I know is the oldest and first writen versions. I did not put up all the info, as I knew it might have been to long of a post. I know where a lot of it comes from and own a lot of those books. Please don't jump to things. I help and guide people... Not just talk down to them because they are doing their homework...
Be true to your art, and it will be true to you
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
It’s good that you want to know the origins of things, but it won't really help you much if it's done with a shotgun approach. It will just be meaningless facts. The art of magic has a rich history. That is not a criticism because, after all, I don't know why you want to know these things. But, for example, there is so much to say about the history of just "The Pass" that it could, and does, fill several books. Each of your questions merits it's own topic.
I'll respond to a few of your questions. I'll try to look up some of the others if I have time later. The Kelley Bottom Placement was originally invented by Joseph Ouvette and is called the Ouvette Master move. I'm not sure where, or even if, the Ouvette Master move is published. Does anyone know this? Unfortunately, over time the connection between a creator and their creation is sometimes lost. Sometimes their creation is even attributed to another magician as in the case of the Ouvette Master move. It’s still happening today. Few people know who invented the Professor's Nightmare because one magician took the routine from another and actually sold it! More recently, a well-known author who is usually very good about crediting made one mistake in a book, and now the Swadling Coin is usually referred to as a Flipper Coin. Robert Swadling lost much of the credit he deserves. That was just a mistake but intentional misattribution does happen. Jonathan Townsend already gave "The Stars of Magic" for Dai Vernon's Triumph routine. It's on page 23 of that book. I think that's the first place it was published, but I am not positive. The first published description of the pass to appear in print was in "Nouvelles Recreations Physiques et Mathematiques" by the French writer Guyot in 1799. The description in that book was virtually identical to the "Classic Pass." This reference is mentioned in the book, "The Invisible Pass" by Hugard and Braue. Gamblers were probably using this move long before it was first published. Slightly off-topic, but quite interesting is the letter before the forward of the book, "The Invisible Pass." Quote:
In a letter to Paul Fleming Nov 5th 1944 Fred Braue talks about his "invisible pass" for the first time: This letter surprised me. Based on what I've read about Charlie Miller, I would have thought that he would have taught this move to Fred Braue, not the other way around. The Muscle Pass is in "Principles and Deceptions" by Arthur Buckley on page 48. It's a very short section, and the title is "THE MUSCLE PASS WITH ONE SILVER DOLLAR". I have heard that this is the first place this was published, but I don't know if that is correct. The Downs Change is in "The Art of Magic", by T. Nelson Downs, edited by John Northern Hilliard, pages 73-75.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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TOBIAS Loyal user Seattle Magic 221 Posts |
Thanks
Be true to your art, and it will be true to you
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irossall Special user Snohomish, Washington 529 Posts |
Tobias is a fine Magician here in the Pacific Northwest. The last thing that Tobias needs is my defending him, with that said it did seems to me (and still does) that he was being mildly attacked by Mr. Townsend. It is this type of response that very well may cause someone else to not ask a question for fear of ridicule. Aren't we all here to learn and to help each other? Maybe I don't understand the true purpose of the Magic Café.
Iven
Give the gift of Life, Be an Organ Donor.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I got the impression the guy wanted to get is education moving in the right direction toward a solid foundation. My presumption, my bad. Who needs to read the classics in our field if they only want to assemble a set of Trivial Pursuit cards for magicians?
Not attacked then, or now. TOBIAS, now that you know of these books, when do you plan on reading them?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
I don't think Mr Townsend is attacking -
On the Café you get a lot of questions with no reasoning behind them. How many time have you seen: "IMPORTANT!!! I NEED a review of Edwin Sach's MAGIC OF THE HANDS" or some such question? I almost always ask "Why"? How many times have you seen: What was the "Professor's" real name in some form or another? How can anyone give a review to someone without knowing the reason for the review? Possible purchase - skill level - content. I've found most of the topic starters requesting reviews or answers to questions concerning moves and magic related are 12 year old kids "trolling" or trying to get the answer to for a controlled entry website. Now having said this - I know of Tobias and know he's not trolling - but an introduction sentence prior to the interrogatives would have been nice. Mr Townsend doesn't need me to defend him - but I do understand his trepidation concerning the opening post. Dave |
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skmayhew New user 17 Posts |
The thread title - "Credit References needed" - explicitly states what Tobias is looking for: References for the purpose of giving Credit.
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Dave Egleston Special user Ceres, Ca 632 Posts |
Is that you Steve?
You kind of highlighted what I said NEEDED for what. Dave |
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skmayhew New user 17 Posts |
Yo Dave!!!!!
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Regarding the "Master Move," it was invented by Ovette, not Ouvette. At least that's the way it is spelled in all my references.
I saw it in a Genii magazine published in the late 1940's. I can understand Jonathan's reaction to this list of questions. The strange part of this is that you could know the answer to none of them and still be a very good magician. A lot of these questions can be answered by spending a bit of time surrounded by <<<<Magic Books!>>>> Even more could be answered by actually reading them. Every book that Bill Hallahan mentioned is a classic. Ditto Jonathan Townsend. You should be reading them.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Clay Shevlin Elite user 497 Posts |
Oh, and I'm still stuck reading Daniel's Merrie England in the Olden Time....
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
You've already read the good stuff, Clay.
Seriously, this post points something out that has become evident in the last few years. That is that more magicians are getting into the "art/hobby/profession/craft/none of the above" without reading the basic texts. I'd rather someone ask me the first text that showed the Classic Palm than the Muscle Pass. I hope Tobias and all the other fellows who have not had a chance to study these musty tomes will take the time to do so. There is material in some of those old books that would fool the guys who learned all their material from Oz Pearlman.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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MueCard Inner circle 2964 Posts |
Regarding TRIUMPH
Look in Stephen Minch: THE VERNON CHRONICLES - FURTHER LOST INNER SECRETS, Vol. 3 ((1989), p.xxii for the gimmicked deck version of the TRIUMPH effect, invented by Arthur Finley “in the 1920s”. |
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Antony Gerard Veteran user Kalamazoo, Michigan 359 Posts |
Hello Tobias
If you do not yet own "The Card Magic Of LePaul" it is a must for the serious cardician. I believe that "An Instantaneous Change" first appeared in the first (1949) edition of "The Card Magic Of LePaul.“An Instantaneous Change” can be found on page 82 of that book. Take care and take cards Antony Gerard |
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
The slop shuffle was invented by Sid Loraine and I believe it was first published in the Linking Ring or Tops.
Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Where was the first triumph wrote?_________ Uh, work on you grammer first.
Piet Forton created the pop out move.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sometimes I wonder why people ask for citations when they have no intent to read the source.
Simply knowing about the cheek to cheek deck is not going to give you much insight into "Triumph". Or Wes James's Wishuffle. Perhaps it would suffice to cite YOUR sources when writing?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan_Miller Loyal user CT 211 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-02-28 17:57, Dave Egleston wrote: Not to bust chops but Magic of The Hands was written by Edward Victor. |
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