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what
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Quote:
On 2005-02-22 12:39, KirkG wrote:
I would add that the condition of being a published magician is unecessary. ...


Perhaps, but a Master is almost always a teacher. I think as we consider Masters, that the ability of that master to teach comes into play. A true Master will be a sought after teacher.
Magic is fun!!!
Mike Wild
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RE: "Writing as someone who "pecks out of order" on such things"

Let's not upset the apple cart here... the pecking order must be maintained at all costs!!

Now, who's repsonsible for creating the list? Smile


RE: "but a Master is almost always a teacher. I think as we consider Masters, that the ability of that master to teach comes into play. A true Master will be a sought after teacher."

I agree with that. I didn't at first, but after a little thought, I think that to truly be a master you must, at some level, be a leader / teacher.

Problems arise when magicians want to be / see themselves as leaders, but don't have the stuff to back it up in the real world. For every true master there are untold numbers of heir-apparents who want to try their hand and impose their will. It makes for a challenging selection process when considering from whom we want to learn.

Mike
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Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-02-22 19:01, what wrote:
Perhaps, but a Master is almost always a teacher. I think as we consider Masters, that the ability of that master to teach comes into play. A true Master will be a sought after teacher.
There is very little published directly from the hands of Fred Kaps , so I now have to assume, he isn't and never was a true master as he didn't teach?

The original statement is ALL wrong.

Fact is, that busy professionals, great masters of the art are touring the world and doing their magic at fancy nightclubs aso. never have time to publish..they might mingle with fellow magicians, as FK did, but they don't have the time to write, and it really takes considerable time to publish omnes thoughts and routines..

Then, when getting older and retired, they might concentrate on teaching and publishing (example, Cellini)in case of FK this unfortunately wasn't possible, nevertheless the original statement doesn't match him, he was *THE* master of magic in almost any of it's facettes, hardly to be surpassed by anybody dead or living!
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
KirkG
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Mike Wild,

Unfortunately your understanding of physics and physiology is limited. While you were correct that "Sound is vibration . . ." That is all it is. What is ". . . received by an ear and interpreted by a brain.," is "hearing."

Just because you aren't there to measure or record it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Don't forget the squirrls and birds. Smile There is still the effect of the percussion blast of a grenade, even if you are deaf. Speaking of which, how do deaf people enjoy music if there is no sound?

The same applies to color. There are still pigments in existance, even if there is no light to reflect off them.

Either way, I don't see how this applies to my point of, " I would add that the condition of being a published magician is unecessary." Perhaps it was my comment regarding shareing. I meant sharing the method, not the performance. Certainly the performance must be something we are aware of in order for us to appreciate and recognize it. I just don't think that if they haven't put out a DVD or book or video, their skill is diminished.

So I think you and I actually agree, rather than disagree.

Kirk



A magician must be known in order to be appreciated for his/her skills
and talent. Creativity, personality, energy, etc, etc, can only be
considered if it exists to us, and it can only be described as being "the
best" if we have an ample supply of other material to compare it to.
Werner G. Seitz
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Also all my comments in this topic where entirely off topic I have a point.

The point is, any question re *who is the best* can't get answered, no matter which category we are talking about.

The reason partly is, there are so many 'real greats' in any field, and this goes for coinmagic too.

On a personal level, I'm about the greatest fan Albert Goshman ever had, nevertheless I would never state he is *The Best*, but his work is the one that touched me the most..

There are many others that also made a big impact and I also like to mention David Williamson here, because also regarding coins, his handling is incredible competent and soooo smooth and elegant, very few are up to his level, if any, re 'elegance' and 'ease' of execution.

Just to mention a single name..

The reason I mentioned Fred Kaps simply is, he doesn't fulfill many of the criterias mentioned re *who is the best*, nevertheless he was about the best in any field..

So again, the reason I mentioned him was, that the question *who is the best* can't be answered re any category of magic and I ALWAYS found, TBH, a such question to be very silly, for the reason I mentioned..

It can't be answered, so why ask?????

Who's the greatest actor?
That question can't be answered either!

FK was not too profilic re coins but what he did with coins was always outstanding !
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Mike Wild
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RE: "Unfortunately your understanding of physics and physiology is limited"

As are all of our understandings of those subjects. I'll agree with the meat and potatoes of your post, but I will have to hold my ground on the sound and color matters.

Vibration is vibration, nothing more. Sound is the interpretation of that vibration by a living thing. If no living things are present to make the interpretation, the vibration remains nothing more than a vibration, and no sound exists. Hearing is simply the process by which vibration is converted into data by the brain.

Color does not / can not / will never exist without a light source present. Pigmentation doesn't matter in the least if there's no light.
explanation of color

These were merely analogies to demonstrate my point that a great magician cannot exist (by definition of the term) unless he and his work are known, and there is a body of related material with which to compare it.

Werner... I'm lucky enough to have one of Fred Kaps' published works... I'd say that he was a master Smile

Mike
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Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2005-02-23 12:48, Mike Wild wrote:
Werner... I'm lucky enough to have one of Fred Kaps' published works... I'd say that he was a master Smile

Mike

Published works ? Smile

You've to se him working!

Get the official DVD: Fred Kaps, Seing is believing..
You'll never regret it.
Here is the URL:

http://www.fredkapsdvd.com/

I'm happy to have seen him doing everything on that DVD life re stagework, and some of the close-up stuff too..
Happy to have been in the audience in 1961 in Liege/Belgium, where he got his second Grand Prix..what an experience..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
Larry Barnowsky
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I think Mike Wild's understanding of sound and light is correct. I would mention that sound waves can also be perceived by our sense of touch. Color only is recognized when light is shined on an object or the object emits light when energy is added (heat, electromagnetic radiation, etc). No other sense can perceive visible light.
I doubt that Marlo deliberately stole material from others and claimed that they were his. It's hard to track down where an idea originated. Similar inventions and creations are deveoped by different people all the time in magic and in other endeavors. I would give Marlo the benefit of any doubt.
Mike Wild
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I'm going to have to take back my "I have one of Fred Kaps's published works" comment. It is indeed Kaps, however, on closer inspection, it was neither written by, nor published by him personally. It's a description of a particular Kaps effect, written by Ken Brooke. Sorry for the false claims Smile

Werner, I must get that DVD. The quality of the sample provided is absolutely amazing.

Thanks Larry. I was hoping all those years in college weren't a total waste of my time Smile

Mike
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"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
KirkG
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Mike Wild,

We will have to agree to disagree on the sound/color thing. It is mostly a question of semantics anyway. What came first the chicken or the egg?

However I think we both agree that Fred Kaps was exceptional!

Larry, Perhaps we need to discuss how machines recognize color? I agree that color cannot manifest itself in realization without light to show it's true colors, but the color(or the relflective/absorbtive components) exist even without the application of light. Light just makes it visable, not created.

Kirk
Mike Wild
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I have a very long and detailed report, which includes indisputable data and eye-witness accounts, illustrating without a shadow of a doubt that the egg, in fact, came first Smile

Agreeing to disagree is always amicable resolution in these situations Smile

Mike
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KirkG
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Actually my understanding is it was neither the chicken nor the egg, but the rooster. Kirk
Mike Wild
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That's what THEY want you to think...
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Jonathan Townsend
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You still need a chicken to compare against.

Therefore it "is" the chicken.

Which still makes the discussion of critera kind of featherbrained.

Much better to work on doing good magic than spend time on establishing a pecking order for the birdseed offered.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Larry Davidson
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The egg came first because, as Marilyn Vos Savant has pointed out, heritable mutations happen only in sperm and ova, so something that was almost a chicken laid a true chicken egg. Um, what was the original question? Smile
Larry Barnowsky
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Larry is 100% correct, except for the rubber chicken.

Larry, Perhaps we need to discuss how machines recognize color? I agree that color cannot manifest itself in realization without light to show it's true colors, but the color(or the relflective/absorbtive components) exist even without the application of light. Light just makes it visable, not created.

Kirk
Interesting subject and I respect your interpretation.
Machines and imaging devices can recognize colors but you still need to bounce some photons off the surface or force the object to emit visible light by adding energy. Absorption also requires the application of light photons. Something that is red has a characteristic electron structure. That of course exists whether light shines on it or not. But red is the sensor's (retina, film, Charged Coupled Device, photomultiplier tube with filters etc.) interpretation of that structure.
KirkG
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Yes, but the structure exists independently of the interpritation.
Jonathan Townsend
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Not so fast, you can't tell if a thing is an "X" unless you already have an "X" to compare it against.

I too fell for the mutation thing and USED to believe in the egg/zygote until I met an engineer who reminded me of the fundamental fact stated above. Even taking the DNA approach, you still need "chicken" DNA to verify against.

Learning is something we can do every day.

BTW, that is a good question about distinguishing the objective physical properties of a thing from its perceptual properties.

Many things that appear one color under one condition of lighting, appear differently under other conditions. Perhaps a non trivial question until you define the observing environment in terms of light source, wavelenghts, etc.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Larry Barnowsky
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Red is the color the retina perceives when a specific wavelength of electromagnetic radiation hits the cone cells. However what we see may not be what others see. Sunglasses, prisms, and filters can give different interpretations of color. The grandest example is from the Red Shift of light coming from quasars and galaxies that are moving away from us as velocities a fraction of the speed of light. The amount of Red Shift gives us an approximation of how far they are from us if you assume the Big Bang Theory is correct. Color can also change by the effect of mass itself (deSitter red shift).
Mike Wild
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Larry, you never cease to amaze me man.

Now, for a side thought, and to relate things back to great magicians....

In magic, who has demonstrated the best knowledge and command of perception alteration, either through sound, or lighting, or any other related processes or systems?

I give my nod to Slydini. I've never seen anyone... ANYONE hold nothing in their hand and have it look so much like coin that I actually see it better than Slydini did it. Smile

Mike
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"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
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