First off I am new to XCM.

I have C4 and am making pretty good progress. Is this a good starting point? Is this some of the harder stuff out there? Any info for a new kid would be helpful!!

Thanks in advance.

Try the dan and dave system. Very nice stuff if you like caps style. Its also a cool dvd to watch with all the extras and such.

Cap Casino is way better than the buck twins ! He has bizillion packets. Get his DVDS at expert magic ! LOL

His stuff is the hardest that you can do. Stick with the best and not with the rest !

LMAO

Joe

IMO C4 is a good starting point cos it has a good teaching style. Over the shoulder View of the explanations. Cap Casino has another DVD called Recapped which is supposed to be a more advanced version of his C4. U might wanna take a look if you are interested in his stuff.

If you are really serious about XCM/Flourishes, you might wanna give the "Encyclopedia Of Playing Cards flourish" a look. Be prepared to fork out a large sum of money thou. Its a book and can be found at:

http://www.flourishman.com

You might wanna follow Chris's advise too as the System by Dan & Dave is cool! Has tons of cards ranging from beginner to the advanced. I highly recommend this. But be prepared as the teaching style might not be that good.

http://www.dananddave.com

Give Generation X by Brian Tudor a miss and wait for his Remake called Extreme Generation. Extreme Generation can be found at Penguin Magic but its still in the manufacturing process. Should be good stuff and the teaching (I hope) should have improved.

Subsequently you might wanna look at De'vo's stuff which is good too but some are honestly quite difficult. You might wannna get his Cradle To the Grave or Cobra Cut. The teaching style is good too with over the shoulder view and he goes through every move clearly. Wait for his Extreme Beginners if you want. Should be good

http://www.xtremehandz.com

PS: Give "Show Off With Cards" from Penguin Magic a miss cos I heard it really sucks.

hope this info helps

cheerios

I'll get dissed for saying this, but that's ok

But the show off with cards is $20 shipped on ebay, and it's worth it, cuase it's cheap and has a lot of moves on it.... even though the teaching isn't the greatest.

I heard from many people the Showoff with cards DVD is not great at all and I am in no way supporting it. But from looking at the Demo, the stuff in the demo looked quite nice. Sure, its not some new awesome flourish dude but there is still some stuff worth trying out. But yeah, about the crediting issue written before, That's bad. But probably the HL people have overdone it (I seriously cant say that anyone else started throwing dirt over the DVD, they got mad when he put up De'vos moves.) And people just followed along without really caring about WHAT is on the DVD.

I don't know, it might not be super awesome but I agree with 4J, for a twenty it can actually be quite ok.

It definitly shouldn't be you're only DVD.. but it is Okay..
I don't know about the politics or the crediting issues..

But it was my first Card DVD.
It has about 80 Different moves on it.
It shows all the moves slowly with an explanation, and then he does the moves
with glass packages so you can see through it.
He does each move an average of 3-4 times.

He doesn't explain fans worth Sh**
He didn't explain the sybil worth Sh**
But I finally got the sybil just from watching it over and over.
I still can't fan
And I think he calls moves different names.
The EoPCF "Scissor Cut" is called a "Hatchet" cut.
So I have no clue if the other moves are named correctly.

Fortunatly I just recieved my EoPCF from Jerry.
I would really recommend spending the $75 on the EoPCF FIRST !!!
It is soo Packed with information.
I also got the Companion DVD with the EoPCF, I like it, but I wish there were a verbal explanation with the demonstations, and also, Jerry only performs the moves once, so if you are viewing the DVD to Learn the trick, you have to set a repeat point and loop it.. But like it says, it is a "Companion" DVD, and it goes well with the EoPCF.

If what you mainly want to do is cuts then sure get all the stuff they said. but if you are interested in exploring all the divisions of card manipulation do yourself a favor and get McBrides Art of Card Manipulation videos. Yes they do have lots of stuff on productions, but they videos alos have a very good basis for regualr manipulation

Another thing to definetely obtain is The encyclopedia of Playing cad Flourishes from Jerry. This will give you enough material to last a lifetime of practice, which is why it is essential, and worth 10 times the price.


Also be on the lookout for De'vo and Jerry's new DVD Xtreme beginers, which will include EVERYTHING you need to get started, and then some.

Show Off with cards is the worst DVD I have ever had.Robb Stiff is slow and teaching sucks too.

Hey Welcome to the Boards Sniper,
So what about the DVD did you exactly not like
that makes You say the teaching sucks?
I think most of the most that he shows, he teaches pretty well
in his explanations and in using the glass packets.
The problems I've seen with it are stated above.

Try to learn how to fan from that DVD 4J, not going to happen.

As I said, it has it's flaws, but it's worth $20

I can't believe anyone would buy Showoff with cards. Anyone supporting what Rob Stiff does clearly is missing something. So should I be able to take Vernon, Marlo, and Slydini's work, ut it all into a dvd while being uncapable of performing the material? And just because the material on the dvd is good that makes it worth it?

I'm disgusted.

Showoff With Cards was not worth 20 $ Rob couldn't adequetly perform the beautiful items that he stole, which he did in fact STEAL. Should he be rewarded for this?

I'm not just jumping on the hate Rob Stiff wagon, I'm personally sickened by what he does. Stealing work from people I respect so like Anders Moden and Lee Asher! Not to mention so many others! I don't give jack about De'vo and his cult. I'm not blindly hating here. I do care what's on the dvd. And NONE of it belonged to Rob.

Like I said before, I don't know about the crediting issues and who invented the moves.
I do know that on the DVD practically NO ONE is credited.
It's still unfair to call the man a thief.
In order to steal something, Somebody has to OWN something to steal.
A Card Flourish is not an Ownable piece of property.
If I put out a Dance instructional Video on how to dance
I would hope people would not call me a thief for not giving a portion
of my proceeds to Vanilla Ice for developing the "Running Man"

I'm only comparing the people you admire to Vanilla Ice in jest.

But the fact remains the Same. The reason that you feel so strongly about
this issue is becuase you're deeply involved in it. If you stand back and
look at the facts. No one STOLE anything, Some Major Crediting Issues were
overlooked, but that does not effect the value of the DVD to a new person
like myself. If you want to make the statement that People should not buy
this dvd becuase the maker is immoral. Then say it clearly, don't state that
he is a thief.

Then clearly you aren't familiar with magic. In magic when you take a move and give the appearance that it's yours, then you've STOLEN it. That's always what it's been. I have no idea where you get the notion that moves can't be stolen.

And you can steal dance choreagraphy, that's a terrible analogy! Let's say a famous choreagrapher put together a piece, I took said piece, made an instructional video on how to do it. That would certainly be stealing, and it would be recognized as stealing!

Rob Stiff is immoral because he's a theif! To say he never stole anything?! You've just insulted/slapped in the face the victims of his theft. Ask them what they think of their moves being stolen.

4Jacks, theft is not limited to concrete objects. Surely you've heard of intellectual property theft, identity theft, etc.

If you can still dream of marshmallows and teddy bears at night after supporting a plagiarist, then by all means, knock yourself out.

/pirates thousands of $$ of music
/ignore above statement if you can get me in trouble

I might have heard wrong but from what I have heard from MANY differeny sources is that if another person has published a move, it is ok for you to publish it as well without crediting it. (But if you want to look good, crediting is better.)

So I am not saying Rob did a good job, I'm just saying Rob didn't rob anyone, there is no laws to break. And everyone knows that those 3 moves or whatever it was are De'vos anyway, don't they? He advertises his stuff so well on the net with all accounts, people know already anyway.

So Rob is not fooling anyone.

that's EXACTLY my point! Card Flourishes are protected by those laws. As far as I know, Vanilla Ice's Dance moves Aren't either. As far as stealing a whole dance routine, I'm pretty sure it's still not covered by any laws.

And I'm not agree'ing with it! I'm not saying it's okay to not credit someone else when you used borrowed material, dance, cards or whatever else isn't covered by any laws.

All I'm saying is that "It's not breaking any laws"



I’ve already stated that I am a Hobbyist and not a professional. And why should it be that any person out there that wants to learn magic has to learn some code of conduct that transcends the actual law?
I got the notion that moves can’t be stolen, because they are not protected by any laws.
That’s where I got the notion.



This is awful, Here I am advocating, some dude I don’t know who threw together a cheesy DVD that I bought off ebay because it was the cheapest and most readily available. Now I look like some immoral little *****, because I’m telling people to buy his DVD when there are people out there who are seriously offended by his actions.

To tell you the truth I couldn’t care less about this Rob Stiff guy or the People he “Stole” his material from. And Yes I can still sleep at night in my Marshmallow PJ’s hugging my Teddy Bear. <How she knew that I don’t know>

But the reason I don’t care is because I’m not involved in magic like you guys are. I read this forum, do a few tricks for my family and friends, and I really really like cards, that is the extent of it. I can’t sympathize with you over having material that is not protected by laws stolen. I make my living off of Civil Engineering, and if I design something, and somebody steals it, I can sue the heck out of them. And when I design a project using someone else’s stuff, they get paid a lot of money. (Client’s money not mine.)

But as much as I don’t know, Have no sympathy, and I’m just an evil horrible human being. I do know that harassing every new person that wants to get involved with magic/cards and buys the first cheap DVD they see on eBay, is NOT the correct way of doing things, and will only bring more grief than good.

Jeremiah, if you feel so strongly about the rights of magicians and card flourishers, than you should contact a lawyer and see how you can start to have there moves protected by intellectual property laws. And I will sign your petition and I’m sure you will have the support of a lot of magician.

I'm not saying it's agaisnt the law! There is no legal action that can be taken, that much is obvious.

But we're talking within the magic community, it is considered stealing. And you are part of the magic community are you not? I just reread your post and it seems you don't' consider yourself so. So then I have another question why are you giving advice with your level of knowlege?

Cause most of the people here do that too.