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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workshop » » How do they do it? Appearing pole v. Contact paper? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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wizardofsorts
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Has anyone else messed around with trying to make an appearing pole? I know, I know, I'm obsessed with them. How do they get the contact paper onto the tube? I've tried several methods with varying success.
Edd
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
Michael Baker
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Top 10 List From The Notebook of Experience:

1) If you were only born with two hands, you are already at a disadvantage.

2) Nobody will lend you theirs. It is more fun for them to laugh at you.

3) Contact paper has one sticky side, until you peel off the backing. Then it has several.

4) An 8 inch by 8 foot piece of contact paper can smell fear and uncertainty. It will attack like an Anaconda at the slightest provocation. If it starts to coil around you, you will probably die.

5) A split plastic tube is like a 14 year old daughter. It will do exactly the opposite of what you want it to do.

6) Trying to keep two opposing forces together in a straight line is like trying to shoot a bullet in one ear and out the other. Mistakes are immediate and obvious.

7) The amount of money you will save by doing it yourself will haunt you for years.

8) You will use so many cuss words that you will begin inventing some.

9) Regardless of what you have ever heard, duct tape will not fix everything. This project will prove that.

10) Don't forget to set up the camcorder. Your grandkids will thank you for it.
~michael baker
The Magic Company
kristel
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Hi wizardofsorts,

I have face that problem for a friend in the past and here is the solution I have use to stabilize the pole. Use a solid but larger pole like a PVC pipe and put your pole over it. The PVC pipe may be a little bit longer or shorter than your pole it's up to you. This way, will find it easier to put contact paper onto the tube. Good luck to you!

Andre Le Magicien
Andre Le Magicien
Quebec Canada
Excuse my French...
knmagic
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Michael Baker
I'm floored by your top 10 list. It's so true! I wish I recorded myself as you said. That also to give wizardofsorts a feed back about my own experience.
knmagic
wizardofsorts
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Michael, Very funny! Although I didn't have that much trouble. I just know that a local magic store is having trouble with their appearing pole supplier and they ask me (after seeing my special North Pole themed appearing pole)to make some that they could buy/resale.

Andre,
That sounds like the "jig" that I might need to hold the pole still and make it stiffer.

My finace helped the result was one useable pole on the second attempt.

Edd

Andre,
What size diameter pvc pipe did you use? Did you just slip the unprepared tube over a smaller pipe of did you slit the tube and wrap it around a larger pipe?
Edd
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
dearwiseone
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Edd,
I would buy it! Trust me, making your own can take hours and hours, plus it often won't last as long as the professional models, making it not worth it in th end. Remember, the professional manufacturers are just that...professional. They've done their research, figuring out what works best, how to glue it, what lasts the longest, etc., that's why their pros. While there is something to be said for constructing your own props (I construct many of my own) others are just easier to buy!
Good luck!
wizardofsorts
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Dear Wise One,
The problem is, they are getting hard to find. To the point that the local magic shop has asked me to supply them with the ones I'm making. I suppose the only way the "pros" became pros was to do it a bunch of times. Thanks for the advice but I'm respectfully going to ignore it.
Edd
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
kristel
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Hi wizardofsorts,

Sorry for the delay. I'm back from a business trip. You will need a larger pipe to do the job.
-Put the tube over the pipe (be sure it's not twist but really straight. Use marks on your pipe to help)
-Mark the center of your contact paper at each ends (glue side up)
-Now if you are doing a long tube you will need help for the next part or the job. Having the slit of the tube upward, slowly align the back center of the tube with your center mark on the contact paper. Taking your time to do this is the main secret.
-Once you've done, you have to do one side at a time. With a moderate pressure roll one side then the other side.
-Finishing the job: there are two different ways. First finishing method, you can cut the contact paper flush with both sides of the slit of the tube. Second finishing method, pull your tube a little bit out of the pipe and fold the extra contact paper inside the tube. Do this bit by bit. I repeat, take your time, don't go to fast.
-Removing bubbles: with the tube over the pipe, use a rubber roller, a mini pastry roller or any kind of roller you can find. If some bubbles resist use a small needle to poncture them and roll again.
-To avoid the pipe from moving when you do this, have two wooden blocks with v-shapes cut in them. This will help to stabilized your pipe.
That's it!

I have done about a dozen of these with success for friends so you can with a little bit of nerves and patience. Good luck to you!

Andre Le Magicien
Andre Le Magicien
Quebec Canada
Excuse my French...
wizardofsorts
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Thanks Andre, That should be a great help. Right now I have an order for 6 poles. Another magic manufactorer was only slighly kidding and asked for 200! But I think 6 is more my size of an order.
Edd
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
Brent McLeod
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Best appearing Poles on the market today-strength, Durability & Materials

don't muck around theres too many cheap versions out there!!!!

From 8 ft wands to Ladders & Hatstands etc-All covered with Pro Vinyls etc

Contact Wayne Rogers

http://www.nzmagic.com/index.html
kristel
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I learned the trick from one of my aunts who was a clerk in the bathroom department of a store. This was long before the marketing of the appearing pole and all the like effects available on the magic market. She told me that they often roll the plastic tube the other way to save space in the bag until a client was nearly hit in the face. But she showed me the funny way those tubes pop-up when rolled and released. She thinks that it could be funny to use it in my magic show and sure it was. Is Dan Sylvester the real creator??? Did he have an aunt like mine to show him the funny way those tubes pop-up? He was surely the first one to market it for official magic uses.

Andre Le Magicien
Andre Le Magicien
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Excuse my French...
wizardofsorts
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If Dan Sylvester wants to supply the poles to my local magic shop he is more than welcome to. He should contact me via PM and I'll supply him with their phone number and the managers name. The shop was buying them from Fun Inc. but was unhappy with the quality of the product. I'm just trying to fill a void that has been created by Socery Manufacturing (I beleive they must have "proper" permission to make them because they have been doing it for years)lack of supply. I'm not under selling anyone and honestly the 6 I will make isn't going to put anyone out of business.
Edd
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
Micheal Leath
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If we make our own appearing pole, then are we stealing?
Bill Palmer
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From the standpoint of not giving the creator of the item his due, yes, you are, if you are performing for profit. That's part of the idea of these tricks. You buy the trick. If it wears out, then you buy another one.

If you suddenly find that an item is no longer available, the right thing to do is to contact the inventor and at least ask permission to make it for your own use.

Most people I know in the business, and I know a lot of them, are less concerned about they guy who makes one item for his own use than they are about guys who make a dozen or two for the local magic shop. What inevitably happens is that other shops start ordering, then it gets out of hand.

I used to make my own version of the Lyons/Devano rising cards. They were totally different from any other similar card rise on the market. They didn't compete unfairly with anyone. But I learned that I was doing wrong by making these things, even though the people who had invented them were dead and they were significantly different from the originals. So I stopped. I even had a lifetime guarantee on the cards. I still occasionally (almost 30 years later) get a pack to repair. I do that, because I obligated myself.

I learned about this stuff the hard way. I try to let others know about what's really right and wrong to save them grief in the future.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Deke Rivers
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This is such a bunch of nonsense. I can't make one because someone else thought of it? HA!

Are there more than one "flying plastic disks" out there, or is Whammo the only company making Frisbees? How about rings from plastic tubes (Hula-hoops)? How about things we use every day, like all the different brands of CD's? Who invented the CD? Is only ONE company in the entire world entitled to make them? Nuts. Bolts. Screws, Computers, Pencils. Paper. Television remote controls. Every item in the world eventually is changed slightlyand made by LOTS of companies. In fact, the US Patent Office encourages this; that's why there are time limitations to patents, as well as allowances for changing items.

And people here are not even talking about SELLING items, only building for their own use.
n3cromanc3r
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I think whether someone makes one for personal use can be debated (although I fall on the side of not making it myself personally) but main point is that these are being made for resale. If it's copywrighted, that would be illegal. If it's not, it's unethical. Either way, it's not for me.

But there will always be people out there to make knock-off's. And they believe they are doing nothing wrong. And there will always be people who will buy from them, and they believe they are doing nothing wrong either. It's an argument that can not be won by either side through a debate on a forum.
Micheal Leath
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I guess all who like to make their own props are stealing. If it is wrong to make your own props then why does this forum exist? Dan is not the only one who has has the idea, so you can't say if it were not for him then the effect would not be around. You can't say that the idea has not been published because I saw the idea in a book, but it used a normal sized drinking straw. Ethics are one thing, but there is a point at which it gets a little ridiculous. It should be ok as long as you are not mass producing the item and selling it.
Bill Palmer
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Nobody has ever said or implied that. Why do you think that, for example, illusion plans exist? You aren't giving any facts about this, by the way.

Now, let me tell you what I have done since my last post.

I found out that Dan Sylvester got the idea from John Farentino. So if you want to manufacture it, go to John Farentino.

The Sorcery Shop bought Dan's "rights" (if any) from him for a sizeable chunk of money.

John actually did market the item briefly.

But all I'm saying about making your own stuff is that if you are knocking off someone else's commercial product, and using it in a performance for profit, you are behaving in an unethical manner. In fact, in some cases, you are breaking the law. It depends on the kind of intellectual property protection the originator has on his item.

You can buy a set of illusion plans from Paul Osborne and make an illusion for your own use, but you don't get the rights to commercial manufacture of Paul's illusions when you do that.

If you have the plans for the Dennis Loomis doll house, you have the right to make ONE for yourself. But you can't manufacture them commercially, without paying Dennis a fee for each one you make. And even then, you would probably have to negotiate that with him.

The interesting thing is that by the time you finish making a really crappy copy of a commercial effect, you have probably spent more in making it than you would have if you ponied up for it in the first place.

Regarding Frisbees. Yes, Wham-O (note correct spelling) is the only company making Frisbees. That's a trademark. Other companies make "flying discs." Although the original patent has expired, the trademark hasn't. So, Wham-O makes improved Frisbees from time to time to stimulate their own sales.

But there was discussion on this thread about manufacturing these in quantity and selling them.

Production and sale of magic props has been governed for a long time by a different set of standards than, say, auto parts. Most tricks are inadequately protected, because the owners of them do not have the time, money or expertise to apply for a patent. So they rely on the courtesy of the community for protection.

Some people take their property rights very seriously. If you want to have more trouble than you can handle, build a Blaney Ladder Levitation and get someone to mention it in a Ring Report. I guarantee you that you will have a phone call from Walter Blaney the day after he gets his Linking Ring.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Micheal Leath
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Quote:
On 2005-03-15 16:25, Bill Palmer wrote:
But all I'm saying about making your own stuff is that if you are knocking off someone else's commercial product, and using it in a performance for profit, you are behaving in an unethical manner. In fact, in some cases, you are breaking the law. It depends on the kind of intellectual property protection the originator has on his item.


In the case of the Appearing Pole, the idea can be found in books. Don't I have the right to make my own based on what I read in books? Like I said, I saw an appearing straw in a book. It used a regular sized straw, but worked exactly like the larger versions.

Quote:
On 2005-03-15 16:25, Bill Palmer wrote:
The interesting thing is that by the time you finish making a really crappy copy of a commercial effect, you have probably spent more in making it than you would have if you ponied up for it in the first place.


I agree there are a lot of crappy knock offs being sold and used in performances. I don't like it one bit. It gives magicians a bad image. Remember though, not everyone does crappy work and just because a well known magician makes an item does not mean you could not make one just a well or even better. There are some things that should be ok to make yourself and some things that maybe should be off limits. It is hard to know where we should draw the line though.

Quote:
Some people take their property rights very seriously. If you want to have more trouble than you can handle, build a Blaney Ladder Levitation and get someone to mention it in a Ring Report. I guarantee you that you will have a phone call from Walter Blaney the day after he gets his Linking Ring.


What if I build a suspension or levitation of my own, then who's to say that it is a rip off? After all the Blaney version is just that, a version. It's an effect that has been around a long time. I have never seen a Blaney Ladder Levitation in person nor do I know the exact workings, so how would I be knocking off Blaney? Why isn't he accused of ripping off someone?

I built a Steinmeyer Illusion called Hot Air from Device & Illusion. I understand I have the right to do that as long as it is for my own personal use. Now, is Steinmeyer ripping off someone? After all it is basically a suspension. No, I don't believe he is ripping off anyone and I also don't believe you are ripping off anyone by making your own appearing pole or suspension. No, don't try to copy it exactly. Put in your own touches and make it fit your style.

I hope my words don't come across the wrong way because these are just honest questions.
kristel
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Hi Bill,

I start doing magic more than 31 years ago. I don't do the appearing pole but the appearing magic wand (4-foot) since 25 years. Can I sue Dan Sylvester for the basic concept taugh to me by my aunt? Don't think so and I don't want to...

There is a good concept called "sharing" not ripping (rip off) but sharing. I am a magician, a ventriloquist and best of all a creator who is willing to share ideas and concepts with the magic fraternity. Believe me it's fun to share and it's stimulating as it help to develop more and more new concept to kept our magic ahead of its time. Our goal is to amaze people by doing magic for fun for some and for profits for the others. Magic is supposed to be fun but where there is money involved their is no more fun or at least less fun.

I hope that the sharing concept will take a better place here at the Magic Café. Why not creating a special section here at the Magic Café where members could send their own creations (videos or text) to share with others and if someone like the effect he can contribute with a voluntary donation to the creator and a little percentage to the Magic Café. It's an idea...???

Excuse my english! I'm a french guy trying to do it's best in your language.

Andre Le Magicien
Andre Le Magicien
Quebec Canada
Excuse my French...
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