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christopher carter
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Quote:
On 2002-10-15 11:38, Shimi wrote:
What book does Christoper Carter need to read to understand that there is no need to use a stooge in Lift or Reminiscence

Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile


If you will re-read my post, you will see that I said that neither effect qualifies as an instant stooge effect, since neither fits in the situation of the spectator being aware of their role in the deception.

Now, what books you need to quit being a jerk.

Christopher Carter
promethee
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Quote:
Good advice, and probably very true about Derren. But I don't think a person should be considered and 'instant stooge' unless he or she knows about or understands his role in the deception. By this standard, neither Lift nor Reminiscience qualify as instant stooge effects.

IMO, unless the spectator is stupid, he/she understands his/her role for Lift and Reminiscence. Of course, I can't be sure of what's happening , but the more I see it, the more obvious it appears to me.

Sorry, Yaniv, I don't really understand your position. But english isn't my first language, so perhaps I'm not receptive to all the linguistic subtilities of these effects.
La fleur de l'illusion produit le fruit de la realite.
kuffs
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Hi guys , but sorry to interupt you conversation but the effect "lifts" and "reminiscence" but I want to say this.

I have seeing mr Brown do thoses effect on lecture and also on t.v ( not exactly the same but )and this is my humble opinion but...thoses routine are not in the categories of instant stooge...

If you thinks this , it's because you don't really understand the principle behind mr Brown idea....

I am not trying to say that your conception of the principle of instant stooge is wrong...but in this case you need to re- consider this fact, because it's really more a routine base on " double-entendre " or double talk...this is what is not base on cueing a helper live...

The helper will never feel that you use it ...i know, I use thoses routines in my stage act now for manys months...

very humbly, I hope my comments is clear if not don't take it to rude , it's was not the purpose of it...

PM please if you want to discuse more....

take care

Kuffs
mclare
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Partick - can I clarify something? Do you mean you've used Derren's routines 'Lift' and 'Reminiscence' in your shows for many months? Or just routines involving a similar principle?

Thanks.
kuffs
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hi Mclare,

sorry if I was not clear enough, but your are right I use the mr Brown "lifts" routine from is book, But I have change the presentation.

And for the "Reminiscence" routine I don't use it like the original but yes, I use the same principle...

hope this clear. Smile

take care

kuffs
promethee
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Quote:
On 2002-10-15 13:07, kuffs wrote:

I am not trying to say that your conception of the principle of instant stooge is wrong...but in this case you need to re- consider this fact, because it's really more a routine base on " double-entendre " or double talk...this is what is not base on cueing a helper live...

The helper will never feel that you use it ...i know, I use thoses routines in my stage act now for manys months...


Are you joking ?
You use these routines in your act, but do you have any direct feedback from your spectator ? I can't believe these people don't understand what's happening !
La fleur de l'illusion produit le fruit de la realite.
Shimi
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I am sorry for my mistake about Mr. Carter.
let me ask again
What books do I need to read so I will be able to that stuff?
Sorry again Mr. Carter

Shimi
PS
I know that I don't write very well in English, Now I know that I don't even read
so good. I will start to post in Hebrew
kuffs
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I can only answer buuy this reply....of course I am not joking !!!

And do you thinks I can have ade a carrer here in Montreal with people knowing what I am doing, of course the people don't know it...but I thinks you mix two's things instant stooge and double-talk...

i agree that most of the routine with instant stooge principle is nothing more than another tools for doing some effects, like the electric chair I did ( the Ricky Dunn routine )and in this kind of routine, yes, after all the spectator will know and understand how it's done, but it's doesn't maters,in the kind of routine I agree with you...

But in the kind of routine that Mr Brown play, the instant stooge principle is not use like you seam to understand it...is more like you do a effect for her and a completely different effects for the rest of the audience...but for the helper on stage you do not cheat, you just do what she things you have said you would do.

Do you have read the content of the first edition of " PURRE EFFECTS " ???, I thinks you will understand more what I am talking about if you have the chance to read it.

And also, do you ever try to use the instant-stooge principle in one of your show, what kind of effect you do with it ??? Because the way the instant-stooge principle is play by most of the performes , is more like the best way to achive a killer effect....

that's not it, it's realy more a tools and when you know to use it ( I am not saying, I know how to use it , by the way )you will have on your side a clever principle, thta play very strong in various place.

it's a shame I can not talk in french , because I will have more to say and also I am shure I will be more clear...sorry for that...Smile

take care and PM if you want more...

kuffs
Quentin
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Derren removed the effects Lift and Reminisence from all later editions of his book Pure Effect precisely because he did not want other performers using his routines. Also because he knew most magicians would not know how they were done. And he wants to keep it that way.

I was fortunate to see one of Derren's very first performances of these routines at the IBM Llandudno convention in 1999. He fooled a lot of magicians very badly. Good for him!
ThoughtThief
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In my view, "instant stooge" effects and "double entendre" effects (ably defined by Mr. Kuffs as, "you do a[n] effect for her and a completely different effect[ ] for the rest of the audience") share a common fundamental flaw, to wit: The reaction of the volunteer is NOT the reaction that one would expect from an "innocent" volunteer (in the case of "instant stooge" effects) or from a volunteer who is experiencing the effect that is being witnessed by the audience (in the case of "double entendre" effects). It is for this reason that audience reaction to such effects invariably seems to fall a bit short.

Mentalism relies heavily for its effectiveness on the audience "feeding off" the reaction of the specific subject whose mind is being read, who is participating in the predicted event, or who is reading the thoughts of the mentalist or other audience member. I've yet to see an instant stooge or double entendre routine where the reaction of the subject was "right," or, stated differently, where there wasn't something "off" or "out of kilter" about the subject's reaction. In turn, the audience's reaction is not the same as it is for other equally well-structured, well-presented exhibitions of mentalism that do not rely on instant stooge or double entendre methods.

This phenomenon can be subtle or stark, depending on the particular routine, its structure, and the skill of the performer, but it seems unavoidable due to the very methodology underlying instant stooge or double entendre effects. In other words, that which makes the effect possible is also the effect's undoing.

And yes, I have seen Derren Brown's (and others') exceedingly clever work in this regard--including "Reminiscence"--both live and on video tape. (Bruce Bernstein and Docc Hilford come to mind as also having made noteworthy contributions on the subject.) From my perspective, at least, the very excellence of Derren's work with the double entendre methodology proves the rule: If the likes of Mr. Brown cannot achieve the same quality of audience reaction from double entendre routines as he achieves from equally excellent non-double entendre routines--compare, for example, the audience's reaction to "Reminiscence" on the London lecture video with the audience's reactions to his verbal card forces on "The Devil's Picture Book" video--then perhaps no one can. The fault is not with the routine or the performer, it is with the concept. Granted, you might very well "fool" or "puzzle" the volunteer and the audience (not to mention magicians), but I don't believe you will ever obtain the earthshaking reaction--from volunteer and audience alike--that is achieved with mentalism using other methods.

Take "Reminiscence," for example. The effect sought to be created is that a volunteer thinks of an event in her life that occurred in the past and the mentalist (and even some audience members) "picks up" on the event and numerous details concerning it. Now, one would expect the volunteer to all but scream each time a revelation of a detail is made; that is certainly how volunteers react during a Q&A routine, for example. And that is how the audience EXPECTS a volunteer to react, because that is how THEY would react and because that is HOW volunteers react at other points in the performance when information known only to them is revealed by the mentalist. But because the effect witnessed by the audience is not the effect witnessed by the volunteer, the expected reaction from the volunteer is not forthcoming--the volunteer seems not at all surprised by the revelations of the details of the event (because of the methodology, she wouldn't be)--and, in turn, the audience's reaction is (at least as I perceived it both live and on tape) tepid and somewhat confused.

I have personally given these methods--particularly double entendre--serious effort over the years, but have yet to be completely satisfied. Others may well have had better experience with this sort of thing, but for my money I think the effects sought to be achieved by these methods can be accomplished by other methods that provide a more consistent visceral reaction as between volunteer and audience--and hence a better reaction overall.
christopher carter
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Shimi,

I will accept that your unfamiliarity with our language led to me misinterpreting your original question. A good book to help one understand the nature of the volunteers participation in Reminiscience might be Ormond McGill's Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism.

ThoughtThief, thank you for your discussion. Your objections to the principle are perceptive, and since I've seen the effect only on Derren's lecture tape, whereas you have clearly seen it in several contexts, my comments here may not have as much validity. In the performance I saw, the use of "trance," to me at least, logically justified the character of the volunteer's responses. Plus it solved some other problems with the principle, which I suspect I shouldn't go into in any further detail on. I'm sure you know what I mean. I didn't think the audience responded poorly at all.

I recall seeing a recording of Al Koran doing his medalion effect on the Ed Sullivan Show. As the woman reads the date on the coin, she noticeably smirks. Koran plays it as if hers were in fact a look of amazement. It was a marvelous moment!

--Christopher Carter
mclare
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Derren's whole routining avoids the problem of a muted spectator response. And the reaction to it is electric - maybe that doesn't come acoss on a video tape.

Kuffs - are you happy performing variants of Lift and Reminiscence? I'm sure you're aware that the 'first edition' wasn't a publication - just a private manuscript distributed amongst a small number of magicians. He's been very clear on not wanting them to be performed and withholding them from publication. Does he know you're performing them? Or are they substantially different from what he does?
Alan Jackson
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Changing the subject slightly there are some good instant stooge ideas in Kenton Knepper's "X".
There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary numbers, and those who don't.
ken stokes
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Quote:
Does he know you're performing them?
Well, you do now.
Yaniv Deautsch
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There are at least 2 routines
in corinda's "13" that are based on the subtle instant stooge Ted Lesley mentioned earlier.

Yaniv Deautsch
sokarnl
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A reaction to mclare:

If derren distibutes his first editon and tells people not to use these effects in it, what is the reason for distribution?

And i think the word "distibution" is not the correct one, but the word "selling" is the correct one.

If MrKuffs has the first edition, as i know he has, (or had), then he has the right to use them.
kuffs
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Hi Sokarnl,

and thank you very much to put some light to this little point for me, because it's seems that's, some of my post vanish around here...

i can even not defend myself...some people cut me...strange in a public forum...some people have told me about this, but...

humbly....

Kuffs
Patrick Redford
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Quote:
On 2002-09-29 09:26, Alan Jackson wrote:
The booklet "Simplicity, Audacity, and Bluff" by Val Andrews has some intriguing instant-stooge effects (including one used by Al Koran).

I just got through reading this book, and yes it has nothing but stooge effects. Though these effects may be practical for a magician - it is not for someone who wishes to leave no trail of evidences that he may not be 'the real thing'
kuffs
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Hi magicbygeorge,

i just take the time to remember people that a stooge and a instant-stooge is completely different...

ine one case the first one would be perfect, in some others case the seconde is better..

..even in some case the instant-stooge principle, is never realise by the spectator himself, so what trace did he find , if he doesn't suspect a things himself...

but , i thinks this kind of weapons is not really like by magician....but , more appreciate by some mentalist...

bottom line... use it or not , like it or not...it's a powerful technic to have in mind...

If use wisely in the right moments at the good place, it can be a real reputation maker...thrust me..

Humbly....

Kuffs
Martin Pulman
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I was in the audience for Derren Browns performance of "Reminiscense" in London now immortalised on video tape.In all honesty the audience reaction was very muted (the tape really captures the ambience of the occasion)but one has to bare in mind this was an audience of magicians and mentalists and you know how cool we like to appear.This performance was before any of DBs TV specials and I for one was hugely impressed by the lecture and,as previously mentioned believe the use of hypnotic trance covered the problem of the subjects muted reaction.
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