I believe that uniformity refers to the actual movements themselves. I.e, do the certain type of deal with the same actions all the way through.

Changing grips between deals is not uncommon. I even, personally, change the gripping hand between rounds when I play cards.

You do realize that Vegas doesn't have all the money,right?


As far as grips go, Have you ever watched the other players at the table deal,or nice old ladies deal Bridge or old men at the park playing Spades? Not one person I have watched holds the deck or deals the same every time. Maybe its just me but I think we as magicians get too caught up in grips and hand postions some time. Like I said maybe its just me.

I agree. In fact on one of Dai Vernon's Revelations DVD's he mentions that Charlie Miller asked the assmebled magi's if they noticed anything whilst he dealt a round of cards. It turned out knowone noticed Miller changing his grip mid deal to the Erdnase 'bottom deal' grip when he dealt himself a card. In a card game I doubt that anyone would notice a change from say the mechanics grip to the master grip from one dealing round to the next.

Regards,

Paul H

As Doc repeatedly says in this forum, if the onlookers don't know what to look for they won't see it.

Hello Alniner,
You have a good point, and I asked myself the same question when I was done filming. I jusify it by comparing it to the passes or mucking section, where the techniques all differ greatly. Someone would have to use just one of the techniques to gain an advantage in a game, and would generally not use seconds AND bottoms in the same company. Take Doc for example who only needs to use one cold deck switch to leave all his opponents broke.

On different grips-
If people don't know of the different grips (or are not looking for it) they don't see it. I remember bringing this up to Darwin Ortiz and he made an interesting metaphor: go outside and look at a tree. If you don't know what kind of tree it is; it's just a tree to you. Same with a grip. If you don't know what kind of grip it is, you're just holding the cards.

be well,
JW

Darwin ortiz is the oracle.He's going all zen like.

I don't think that it matters to the audience what grip a magician uses to entertain an audience with any kind of a deal.

At a poker table it matters.

But in a show with a demo of card shark material I do not think the audience gives a hoot about an Erdnase grip, a master grip or a straddle grip. As long as the magician card shark was entertaining. And the audience liked it and the client was happy with the performance.

Most magicians that do this kind of material use lots of grips in one demo...

Doesn't matter in 99% of games either.

In 100% of games the Neck Grip is the one to avoid.

Having played cards in my past and having played cards with Jack Pyle and Bill Malone. And talked about card cheating to several advantage players including Carl Jackson who used the punch deal to pay for his house.

The general rule is to look and hold the deck and deal and shuffle in the same way the other players do.

Blending in was the important thing.

But I never used magic or my ability - to cheat anyone out of money.

I play cards very often and I've never seen two people deal the same way in the same table. Everybody has a different way of holding the deck and the most distinctive part is the take of the card. And when it comes to shuffling, there you see quite some variations.

For me, the general rule is only one. Relaxation and casualness. Anything else is just magicians' talk.

I am not so sure about it because a couple of gamblers came to my place from the casino and were talking about a dealer who had been holding the deck in an odd way and they had been keeping a close eye on him all night. They said he was not cheating because he did not stop dealing them good cards and they had been the big winners in the game. I asked them to show me how the dealer was gripping the cards but they could not do it, but it looked to me like an Erdnase grip they were trying to show me. The point is the grip made them sus. So I agree with Glen: The general rule is to look and hold the deck and deal and shuffle in the same way the other players do.

Tommy

One of the more interesting things I have found in demonstration of the strike second is on one of the Martin Nash tapes. He holds the deck sideways and still deals strike seconds.

He teaches this and it is easy. But he uses great showmanship when he does it in his show and the first time I saw it I was very impressed!

As result of poker competitions, which are on every night of the week in casinos and cater for all size pockets from £5 upwards, most poker plyers today play in casinos. Most of them can not shuffle and deal cards because they do not need to, as the cards are dealt to them by a dealer. Casino dealers, all over the world shuffle, grip and deal cards with little variation. Those players that can handle a deck, try to copy the professional casino dealers, even them that can not handle a deck try to copy the casino dealers. Consequently all poker players see a none casino shuffle, grips and deal as odd. If these players go to a private game they become uneasy about seeing overhand shuffles etc. Even asking them to cut would be strange to them.
Before these poker comps took off most poker players had never set foot in a casino and most games were private, the cards would pass from player to player to be dealt. It did not look odd then to see all kinds of shuffles, grips and deals but most players then could handle a deck of cards. There might be many games like that about still but I personally have not seen any for some years now. The private poker games today are casino like. Many poker players today, even those who call themselves pros, do not know many of the old games like Draw Poker. In fact most only play Holdem or Omaha and do not know any other game. Some poker players now have never sat at the table and have only played on the Net. I do not have a clue what looks odd to them, everything, I would think.
Most laymen are not poker players and so the magician need not worry about grips etc. So long as it does not look too strange whatever they do will fly past laymen.

Tommy

Tommy,

I know at your game you deal from the table.But imagine this scenario.....

If someone sat at your game which was hand dealt and a player used the standard mechanics grip.

What would you do?

Just a thought on the different dealing grip issue:

This thought isn't original with me. I THINK this came from Gary Plants in a brief conversation about bottom dealing we had about 12 years ago at the Baltimore IBM.

The 2 main false deals (bottoms and seconds) usually require different grips for OPTIMUM performance of each one. By going to the same grip for both, you may eliminate the "fault" of different grips only to be exchanging it for other faults -- less than optimum execution.

I agree.

Just my (or rather Gary's) 2 cents.

DD
PS: Gary, if it wasn't your thought, sorry for the incorrect attribution.

I love that! I am not a gambling man, nor will I be. But I like the forcing ability of this. As well as the manipulation aspect. I love McBrides Art of Card Manipulation.

When he deals himself 4 aces face up, is that a wichita slip?

A Table Deal was used in nearly all high stakes poker in the UK in the past and is still used in a lot of games but many games now use a hand due to TV. The reason a table was always used was because that was the deal used in all casinos and guys were aware of false dealing etc but guys as aware today as they were.

A table deal is used in the game I run but I play in other games in casinos and a hand deal now is used. The mechanics grip is a very common grip even in casinos and it would make me suspect anyone who used it. On the other hand if I saw someone use the Erdnase grip I would be very suspect simply because it is a difficult way to hold cards and I would wonder what reason someone would have to hold the deck like that. I can not recall ever seeing a player hold the deck in an Erdnase grip. The two gamblers I refer to above know nothing of mechanics but they knew it looked awkward to them. Anything that is done at the table that does not have a reason makes guys ask why. The most common grip in a casino is, strangely, the Sharps and Flats grip, SF see Marlo RCT. When the dealer finishes dealing he changes the grip to the mechanics grip to hold it still. Some dealers use the SF grip but hook the Pinky around the back.

Also, despite what magicians say, pro casino dealers spin the cads when dealing from hand. I have many overhead views of games in casinos and I have studied them doing it. I am talking about poker games from all over the world, many in the USA. There may be exceptions but I have not seen any.

All I am saying is if you put a magician in the dealers seat in a casino and he did not spin the cards and used an Erdnase grip then he would attract attention of players and the security, in my opinion.
In high stakes private games, in the UK at least, it would be the same and in the UK it is a Dealer that deals and not the players. You will see the odd casual game start lets say after a race meeting usually where the players might deal and these can be big games, but generally speaking the games are casino fashion. I have to say that casinos today have become very lax when it comes to procedures. The law now is a none employee can deal poker in casinos and I have even seen overhand shuffles used. The players that deal are usually good dealers and might have had a little training from the casino pros. The good thing from a cardsharps point of view if he is dealer is the cards are rarely cut and that is because guys copy what they see on TV games and what they see in casinos.
I live around casino poker players so I am a bad judge of what the guy in street would see as odd. Cheating is a topic of normal conversation amongst poker players and they talk about false dealing etc but rarely do they mention a grip most just have a general idea what is possible. Some are knowledgeable and you must bear in mind that in game there might be ten players and it only take one of them to become suspicious. So you can not think this or that would fly by the average poker player for safety you must assume there is a knowledgeable guy at the table. Magicians can not just assume all spectators know nothing about cards and I think their mechanics should be good enough to fool even a magician.

Tommy keep up the good work, I like reading your stuff I learn a lot from it.

Your Friend

Doc

I made a few mistakes in the above. For one I meant to say:
The mechanics grip is a very common grip even in casinos and it would NOT make me suspect of anyone who used it but the Erdnase grip would. However; I do watch all dealers whatever their grips. That is not to say I could spot a bottom deal in a game if the deal was good. I am not kidding myself that because I know a move then I can spot it. I think I would have to be very suspect first before it was done, to spot a good bottom dealer. Or any other move if it was expertly executed. I think an expert at the at the table is not just a good mechanic but also good con man and would not do anything that dit not fit in with the game.

Most of that is to do with Poker but the one and only expert I knew was mainly a Bridge and Gin player. The amount of money he played for in these games would scare high stake poker players to death. Those games are a different kettle of fish.

Tommy