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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Is 'Too Much' Patina Dangerous? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Chessmann
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My copper Sherwood Cups have turned so dark it seems that they will soon turn black! ;^)

Seriously, they have darkened so much so fast that I was curious about short/long term damage to the cups.

I have never seen anything suggesting that the patina in any way poses a threat to the cups, but thought I would ask to be doubly sure.

Thanks in advance,
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Bill Palmer
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It shouldn't hurt them at all. The time to start worrying is if you see any bright green spots on the cups. That would be verdigris, and it might make some pockmarks in the surface.

If you want to see some cups that have good, honest patina on them, go to the cups and balls museum and look on the page of regular cups. Take a look at the Stubby Cups and the Charlie Miller cups. Those two sets have been with me for a long time. I got the Stubbies when I was in high school and the Charlie Miller cups were left to me by a friend. The patina on the Stubbies is at least 40 years old. The patina on the Miller cups is about 30 years old. There is no pitting on either set.

Some people recommend putting a coat of floor wax, such as Johnson's paste wax on them to give a finish to the patina. I don't know how slippery this will make the cups. You can try it, and if it doesn't work, use a heavy detergent to remove it.

Personally, I would leave them alone.
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Chessmann
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That's what I suspected. Thank you, Bill.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Whit Haydn
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I use paste wax (carnuba) on my cups. It works great and does not make them slippery at all. In fact they have a great feel. The dark chocolate color and the car wax shine give them a very ancient-looking, deep and glass-like gleam. The yellow balls and oranges really pop when next to them. I like very dark cups because they don't compete with the balls and loads which are really the "stars" of the show.
Snidini
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Mark, search out for a product called Flitz. It not only cleans metals but will to some degree "waterproof" the surface. It cleans and protects again corrosion and moisture. I haven't found a better product for metals yet and that's what I use on my copper cups to keep them looking bright and untarnished.

Snidini
Bill Palmer
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Different performers have different feelings about patina. Johnny Ace Palmer used to polish his cups before every evening's work. It was part of his ritual.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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John Pezzullo
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My teeth are covered in 'patina'.

Should I consider brushing them before I perform?
"One arrow. One life."
Chessmann
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I have some flitz to keep my Swiss Army Knife collection looking nice and bright!

Mark
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Magicmaven
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I am considering buying a set these cups as a long term investment. Does this sort of thing happen quite often with Copper Sherwoods? Or is this something I am going to have to deal with with most copper cups?

Thanks guys.
And thanks for the PM Mark.
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BSutter
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This process will occur on all Copper Cups that do not have a sealant applied ie: lacquer or some other coating. The formation of patina can be slowed down or even halted with the application of products like Johnson's Paste Wax, that contain no abrasives. This is a natural process that can be controlled with routine polishing.

Bill
Magicmaven
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Thank you, Bill.
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Bill Palmer
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Patina is not a bad thing. It is a natural oxidation of a metal. Most bronze statues develop a patina coating, unless there are a whole lot of pigeons in the area.

If you want to keep them from tarnishing, just give them a coating of wax.

Ordinary lacquer is not a good coating. It begins to chip off at the wear points, such as where the cups come down on the shoulder bead. Then you get a ring of brown around otherwise nice-looking cups. So many of the cup makers -- Riser, Sherwood, etc. do not put any lacquer on the cups. The old Rings 'n Things cups had a coating called "Magipoxy" that was put on electrostatically, and it was tough as nails. EPA regulations have made doing this cost prohibitive.
"The Swatter"

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Glenn Godsey
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Hi Bill. Nice to see my old Paul Fox cups on your museum pages! I have a set of Phoenix cups (for "street magic") that seem to resist aging. I would like to have a darker patina on them, but it hasn't happened. I have even tried the old urine treatment a couple of times, but they still look too new to me. It must be something in their alloy. I welcome any suggestions.

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
Bill Palmer
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The alloy in the Phoenix cups is variable. Sometimes you can't keep them from tarnishing. I would go over them with lacquer thinner to remove any finish that might be on them. In fact, perhaps giving them a good going over with #000 steel wool, then #0000 steel wool might break through any protectant that might be on them.

Thanks for letting me purchase your Paul Fox cups. They really illustrate how the Danny Dew cups evolved over the years. I have another brass set that weighs considerably more than the set I got from you. It was produced about 10 years later.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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Pete Biro
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I think the speed of the darkening is based on the individual person's handling, the acid content of their skin's oil, etc.

Just don't get that green stuff in the seams... usually caused by residue from copper cleaners.
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Magicmaven
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So Pete, do you suggest washing your hands before using or handleing the cups? that's what I do with my coins...

Thanks, all this is quite benificial for me too.
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Pete Biro
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It always pays to have clean hands.
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Chessmann
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I, on the other hand, use Cornhusker's Lotion and Violin Resin to give tack to my hands for some other effects, and I never wash my hands before practicing - if I do my hands are as slippery as a greased pig. Can't properly handle cards or CC Knives or Linking Rings with cleanly washed hands.

Mark
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Hamilton
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Renaissance Wax is probably the best wax to use for protecting your cups and all other metal props as well. It will at least partially, if not totally, stop the patenation process, so let them get to where you want them to look before applying. Then reapply occasionally depending on your use of the cups as your hands (acids) will take it off over time. It is also easy to clean off with detergent and water, but give the cups a good rinse and dry to get all detergent off.

Do not use lacquer or other coatings as they will eventually start to wear of in spots (not pretty) and do not stop the oxidation (patenation) of the metal underneath and is a pain in the neck to get off when needing to clean them up.

For those that have this problem and need to remove the lacquer, you have my sympathies. Bill Palmer recommendation for removal but add that the stuff is toxic and you might want to take it to someone to do. Try furniture strippers and restorers or jewelry shops.


This is from one of the sites that sell the stuff:

http://www.restorationproduct.com/renwaxinfo.html

RENAISSANCE WAX/POLISH
An extra-ordinary wax/polish. Restore, refresh and protect your antiques, cutlery, furniture, precious metals, armory, collectibles, art, photography and much, much more. It's uses are endless. The #1 choice of museums, galleries and professionals worldwide.

RENAISSANCE WAX is used in the following places in the U.S. - The Smithsonian Institute, Colonial Williamsburg Conservatory, Abraham Lincoln Residence, Vicksburg Military Park and Museum, Henry Food Museum, Academy of Arts, Metropolitan Museum of Art, NRA Museum, Rockefeller Restorations, Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation, Hilton Hotels, BYU Museum of Art, National Ornamental Metals Museum, as well as other museums, government agencies, craftsmen, collectors both professional and amature alike.

In the United Kingdom it is used in the British Museum, Victoria and Albert Museum, Buckingham Palace, Military Museums at Aldershot, H.M. the Queens Royal Armourer, The National Museum of Antiquities - Scotland, Royal Armories (London & Leeds), The Imperial War Museum, Windsor Castle, and The Tower of London.

As you can see a lot of other folks use it to protect their priceless antiquities.

Hamilton
Tom Frank
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No finish to remove on the Phoenix Cups. Like someone said earlier, the more you use them the quicker they will naturally tarnish. These indepth discussions about cups are all very interesting. I never would have thought that people would take things to this level. Soon, there will be no cup topic left unturned.

It's been real interesting to me all the different points of view about what people like and what they don't like. Also the attitudes of the collectors, the performers and those that do both.

You keep writing. . . I'll keep reading!

Phoenix Cup Review

http://www.magicrants.com/?p=423
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