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Hypnotic Winter
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I've been curious abou this for a long time. Why is it young performers release their material?, especially good material.
What every happened to the joy and fun of keeping one's exceptionally good material to one's self, at least until there was a huge amount of it we no longer use.
I love the idea of playing the friendly game with another performer of showing them somthing they cannot explain and then they show you somthing you can't explain but these days it never seems to get to that stage, the moment a young performer comes up with somethign new he releases it, in fact, when I have examines such material you can tell it's brillient but that it's not been in use for long as you can see so many polishing ideas for real world performance.
I'm in my late twenties and still consider myself much too young to release anything and besides, I still use most of my material and enjoy using it much more then the idea of others commenting on it.

So I'm just wondering at why so many people publish material that they haven't even invented long?

Maybe I'm just being silly and that I'm the only one who enjoys not releaseing any thing for a long time after it's inventions.
Be awair that I could well be completely wrong on this whole subject, hence my asking opinions.

Any opinions?

H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
Ken Dyne
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Hi HW. I shall answer from my stand point.

I began writing my ideas down about two and a half years ago, just for me to keep a record of what I had come up with, as a sort of resource pool.

I then sent them to a good friend of mine, who as a respected magician (at least by me) who said I should publish it. I then showed the ideas to others who also encouraged me to do so.

For me, mentalism and all magic is about furthering the ideas. If I have created somethign which may be built on by someone else to make somethign all the more amazing then that is a good thing as far as I can see.

There are not so many magicians in relation to "normal people" in the world and I feel we should stick together in some sense in order to forward our profession and push the boundries of impossibilities.

For me, I really want to share my ideas and hope that they bring some value to those who use them.

I have received great feedback form the people who have received their copy already and that really make sme happy, that my ideas are not only worth whatever I make out of them, but a lot more in that other can get worth from them too.

I hope this makes sense...?

Best,
Kennedy
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
jimtron
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Surely earning money has something to do with it, at least sometimes.
Ken Dyne
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Jimtron,

I could not disagree more. Since magic is such a niche market, and considering the time and effort, the risks you put up there really is not much financial gain in putting material out, unless you are a dealler.

I know this to be the case for me anyway...as ever I only speak for myself. I'm sure that others will agree with me also, unless you are a certain Hypnostist who shall remain ananamous, then money certainly is not a major outcome of releasing ideas.

When I released Thoughts So Far, I priced it in line with other products, like Luke Jermay's first book, when he was reletavly new to all of us, he charged the same for his paper back booklet as I am for mine. Now soem have said to me I am under charging as my book is somewhat thicker and diverse, my reply is that I don't want to be greedy and I'm not a famous guy so I have no right to charge any more. As long as it doesn't cost me, I'm a happy guy.

I make my living from performing, I am a pro mentalist, not a pro writer. I keep that firmly in my mind.

Best,
Kennedy
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
Hypnotic Winter
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Having just learned about Kennedys recient release I apologize about the bad timing of this thred.

I originally was curious about this question over a year ago when another young performer released some killer material and so many young performers have followed suit. I had held off asking this question so I didn't effect any one in particular.

I just have a different school of thought at this point in time.


H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
jimtron
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Kennedy:

I should point out that I was only speculating, but I did say "...at least sometimes." Also, I didn't mean to imply that a profit motive was a bad thing.
Ken Dyne
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Jimtron, I also apologise if I seemed to be getting at you, I was not. I was merely makign my stance clear. Its late here.

No offense meant or taken my friend,

Best,
Kennedy
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/

BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn
ALEXANDRE
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You really can't make any kind of significant money publishing effects, or even books for that matter, unless you have tons of material out like Jay Sankey or Ted Lesley for instance.

As far as releasing material soon after it's created, I'm not sure that happens all that often, at least not with the material I've come across, and my material as well. Besides, sharing this kind of information and/or getting "your name" out there, rarely, in my opinion, affect the creator's work as a performer.

I believe the originality comes in "performing" an effect, not the effect per se, so most of these guys could really care less who's perfoming their stuff because they can't perform exactly like they do. Does anyone really think they'll start taking Osterlind's gigs if they perform all his material? His effects are fantastic, but it's Osterlind they want, whether he's using an Invisible Deck, a Thumb Tip, or simply telling a story.
jimtron
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"No offense meant or taken my friend..."

Likewise.

best,

Jim
shrink
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I reckon Kennedy is refering to me since I am a hypnotist that markets effects to make money. I have made a couple of releases. The first one was because I was frequently asked on here to release it so I did which was the IA pads. The second was 7th Sense. I released this for two reasons. One to make some money. Secondly to give something out that would be a serious addition to any performers show. Being honest I would never have released 7th Sense if I intended to continue making a living as a mentalist or hypnotist. Plus I believe I produced a much more superior product than the one I purchased more than 10 years ago and market it at a fraction of the price. It is being used in a number of TV shows apparently so I reckon they are getting their money's worth.

I have lost count the number of posts I have shared on here and other forums for free because I believe if you share you eventually get it back in some form or another. I could've easily have written a book or two.(except I can't be bothered)

The market is small and not much money to be made from it. However if you are a pro then you your time is money or you are not a pro. Whether you are supplying your peers or performing shows I see no difference. I do not pursue a full time career in mentalism at this time because there is not enough money in it for me in the very few gigs that are available. I don't see it as a good use of my time. I believe that is one of the traits of being a pro. Unlike many I have done years of performing hypnosis shows therefore performing to me is work and I got past the hobby stage years and years ago(if I ever was in that stage I took up hypno shows to make money)...to me its a job of work.

My main focus is using my skill set to crack a completely different market and create something new which will give me a much much better return for my time and effort and is much more of a challenge to me. Again I believe this what being a pro is about.

IA pads have now gone. 7th Sense may also go soon. I guess Im am not so young.;-)

Thickness of book doesn't create the value. Its the perception of the market whether it is worth it to them or not...Luke's stuff was pretty original and different at the time which is why it was valued. It was also well timed.

Shrink
London
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Remember the old saying ..."If you want to keep something a secret....put it in a book".
THOUGHTfully,

LONDON
Osiris
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Quote:
On 2005-03-28 17:34, jimtron wrote:
Surely earning money has something to do with it, at least sometimes.

One one level this could be true... as has been pointed out, many a dissapointed individuals exist in our realm because their "big book project" neted them less than $1,000.00... heck, I have several ebooks in circulation and I doubt we've seen that much in total. Not that the info is bad but because of what the material covers (Marketing for Mentalists) and don't cover (tricks for magicians that think they're mentalists).

I've been on the "supply" side of magic for well over a quarter century. It doesn't matter which field, I've been involved with major illusions, small props, books, etc. and none of them pull in the big $$$s many believe they do. That's why guys like Stinemeyer hold down a day-job.

99% of the reason so many "Unknowns" put out an ebook or pamphlet centers on Ego -- the need to get their name out and little more. I believe that's one of the lines from the old Henry Hay book "to be a famous magician, write a book!" The problem is, some of these "Kids" have no actual performance experience (or very little to speak of) and what they put forth is conjecture far more than aplicable working insight.

The other reason many are producing so many books right now, is in the drive to claim a concept as their own. Truth is less than 5% of the material being released these days even comes close to be "Original". The majority of it is rehash -- someone's idea of how to do someone else's material and little other. Heck, I've even produced a couple of tomes along those lines... then again, I've learned that there is greater protection as well as name recognition value in not writing the books and in composing regular articles and contributions to the various eZines now in circulation (I've been with OnLine-VISIONS almost since its inception as well as TOP HAT in the UK for nearly two-years now.)

All the "marketing" we see in play right now is also a manifested "knee jerk" of all the train chasers i.e. everyone trying to make a name for themselves in today's popular Mentalism & Bizarre Magick fields. The result is over-saturation of the market and no one is winning!

It's great knowing that such things are cyclic in their nature and as the old saying goes "This too shall pass..."
jimtron
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Quote:
On 2005-03-28 20:06, London wrote:
Remember the old saying ..."If you want to keep something a secret....put it in a book".

I've heard that said, but I'm not sure how often that it's true. Certainly not in the case of the books writtine by Anneman, Corinda, Banachek, Osterlind, Maven, and T.A. Waters (to name a handful).
Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2005-03-28 20:45, jimtron wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-03-28 20:06, London wrote:
Remember the old saying ..."If you want to keep something a secret....put it in a book".

I've heard that said, but I'm not sure how often that it's true. Certainly not in the case of the books writtine by Anneman, Corinda, Banachek, Osterlind, Maven, and T.A. Waters (to name a handful).

Actually, in a way you've proven the point... most of the guys that are now into mentalism suddenly are only getting their info from DVDs that have stuff taken from the books that the gentlemen above put out.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
jimtron
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My point was that publishing a trick doesn't necessarily keep it a secret. Quite often here people mention 13 Steps, Practical Mental Magic, Osterlind's "Essays", Psychological Subtleties, Absolute Magic, etc. These are books, and although some of this stuff ends up on DVD (like ETMMM), many people do read the books (me for instance), and even if they get the info second hand, from a DVD, either way the secret has not been kept.

Does anyone have any examples of ignored gems in books?

How many here get material from books?

best,

Jim
scott b.
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Quote:
On 2005-03-28 22:49, jimtron wrote:
How many here get material from books?

best,

Jim

*raises hand*

The only things I get from dvds are things you can't really get from books. Like Mind Mysteries, Desert Brainstorm, and Banachek's PK Silverware. (Some of Get Nyman you can get in his lecture notes, but not all). Everything else is books.


Scott
Thanks! Scott B.

"I don't know the key to success . . . but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." - Bill Cosby
Greg Arce
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About 90% of what I end up using or stirs my imagination comes from books... usually the older ones... the other 10% is a mixture of DVDs, new stuff & brainstorming with the guys.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
Scott Xavier
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I have a LOT of down time. Lets face it, Im new to this game. Publishing establishes rapport and character in a magic community, does that help? Yes. When so many web sites degrade you as a performer and they;ve never met you, it's kind of nice to allow people into your mind.

I'm proud of Dim mak I can't use it, it doesn't fit my personae. Its power is in the story and the after life aspect, so I decided to let people have it. May it serve you well.

That and I really truly believe I am helping the art. Is aw some one perform my Hyped routine and I loved it! They added a new presentation, but kept the basics, its really flattering!
kuffs
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To be honest... Pay the rent! Smile

And marking or atleast scratching the magic/mentalism book of history

This is why For me I decide to place a standard when I produce MIND STUNTS 1 (my first production) I make the decision to produce something that it's close to "art" or atleast in a creative way and not only to make money!

I mean, it is one thing to make money, and it ok also to think money(anyway less then you imagine)But if I make money, I feel the need to gave something in return

And this is why, I will never (yes mom, I can say never!)never produce a dvd or any others project in my KITCHEN...

Some will say...Hey! Kuffs, It's not supposed to be made for the Oscar! I just want to know more secrets! OK! Why not learnig new ideas in a creative mood or better in a entertaining educational way. Of course we have all our style and I don't ask Docc's Hilford to be funny! But what a showman with is own style he is! We are performer at the base, we must remind us...

I remember when I was started magic, when I saw some video like David Williamson WOW! I never perform any routine from the video, but it place a standard in my mind about what is a PRO and less will be not acceptable...

For me it's easy... If I have the "pretention" of being a creator... I cannot make or present cheap project, everytime it should be better and better, to left the same impression I receive when I start magic... Otherwise, I will feel like to many's persons... When they do there job only for money! Bad feeling! And this poorly creative state of mind will grow and grow and never stop...

It's my french humble opinion... It probably the most inteligent post my brain wrote here Smile

... And by the MIND STUNTS 2& MIND STUNTS "special edition" is almost ready!

Just kidding! Smile

Thanks for your time and I hope I will not get kill, for my comments... LOL

Kuffs

P.S. I am surprise that no real recognize annual awards is dedicated to production video/dvd or best book. Maybe this is the way to go, if we want to "filtred" our... Modern art!
shrink
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When I say I do it for money it is because this is my only way to make a living.
( I don't make a living doing this I just pay some bills)If I do something for money it is equal or more value than the investment.

Most of the time I post on places like here and answer any pms because Its fun and simulates my imagination just as Greg said.

I don't think there is anything wrong learning from DVDs. It is a more fun way to learn. And If DVDs had been around in Corinda's time I would bet he would have made a few..

Shrink
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