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James Adamson Special user Deatsville - Holtville - Slapout, AL 945 Posts |
The Daiper bit would not fit my character, but if your character is right for it that's your choice.
Also, I think everybody should re-read Page 9, The Preface, first two paragraphs, and then the following paragraphs by Mr. Kaye as it is an important part of the book. The only real problem I had with the book (same with his GENII article) was the shameless self-promotion of all of his "Celebrity" sections as in my opinion they contributed nothing to the book. Otherwise a GREAT book.
Be remembered for performing what looks like MAGIC, not skill.
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Smoke & Mirrors Special user 506 Posts |
I see some "grown ups" here that need a time-out!
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Maybe a glass of milk and a nap might help!
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The Great Smartini Inner circle 2280 Posts |
I think Mark's message about the break-away wand is an important one to consider...the joke should be directed at the magi...still, I don't think that a break-away wand or many of the other gag items magicians tend to use are going to traumitize a child...but anytime your attempt at humour is directed towards someone else (child or otherwise)you risk the chance that you might offend someone...even if the humour is mild and your intentions are well meaning...the original post started an interesting and passionate discussion about the important concept of treating your helpers respectfully...I for one plan to relook at my routines to ensure that I'm not getting a cheap laugh (except maybe for on myself)at the expense of someone else
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Brian Lehr Inner circle Edmonton, Canada 1605 Posts |
When I do the breakaway wand, using the child to "break" it, there is a set up before I hand the wand to him/her that prepares the child for the break. I usually say something like, "Now Suzie, when I give you this wand, I want you to be veeerry, veeerry careful, because this is a special wand to me. It was given to me by my great, great, great, great grandfather (he was a really great person!). So whatever you do, doooonnn't break it."
This is said with certain expressions on the face (and a smile and a wink), with glances alternating between the child helper and the audience. By the time I give the child the wand, everyone is expecting, even hoping, that it'll break. At the end of my show, when I do the coloring book routine, I give my helper a breakaway paintbrush. Again I say, "This is a very expensive paintbrush. I paid a million dollars for it! Did so! So whatever you do, doooonn't break it!" By now the kids are staring expectantly at the helper and the paintbrush, and they are not disappointed. Perhaps it just depends on how some of these items are presented. Brian |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Deke Rivers and Mark Tripp have it right: If you have to sink to humiliating a child for humor in your show, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work.
I would add: Just because Silly Billy or anyone else has never had any complaints does NOT mean that such complaints don't exist. A guy may never be convicted of drug selling yet he DOES sell pot! A volunteer comes out of the audience AS A FAVOR to you, to help in your show. That volunteer is on stage, which is YOUR turf. He or she, therefore, should be treated as a guest in your home. And, unless you regularly put diapers on the heads of guests in your home, you shouldn't do it on stage. Period. (On the other hand, maybe you DO put diapers on the heads of guests in your home. If so -- and ONLY if so -- go ahead and do it on stage. Otherwise, GROW UP!) |
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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
Now this was a post!
Having been burned with even a "good"* version (*=making myself look like the fool)of Topsy Turvy Bottles....it seems like, with the political sensitivity right now, it would make no sense to go near any "potty" humor right now unless you absolutely know the crowd you're working. If it were a magician's convention I might say "go for it!". Of course, you still might offend some. I say this because I think people in our industry have a "wider" sense of humor as far as understanding the concept and intention without jumping to conclusions or becoming close-minded when faced with something different. As far as doing anything like the toilet plunger...even that gets a little on the edge. Honestly, I think both gags are "funny". At the same time, even if it's funny, would'nt a person rather look at the miriad choice of other gags and pick one that will insure you get invited back? That's my two cents, hope it made "sense"! I also want to ad...enough with the animosity! I have a lot of respect for everyone here at this site for speaking your mind. At the same time, there's a way to speak your mind without burning bridges behind you. Believe me, I've learned this the hard way... Chris |
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MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-09 00:49, The Great Smartini wrote: The problem with the written word over the spoken is that this lacks tone and inflection. You can't see my face and that makes this colder and seems harsher than it is. I am sorry for that limit on these comments. I'm sorry, but they do indeed cause trauma to a child. I have seen it. I have seen children cry when the wand breaks and they realize that the kids are laughing at them. I saw a 12-year-old boy cry at "Houdini Outstripped" because those underpants with red hearts on them weren't his but everyone was laughing at him. I PERSONALLY was the one who after I did the wand and the fan the child away, sat down, hugged his knees and cried saying "You're making my stomach hurt." Of course the adults laughed even harder, but I doubt the parents thought I was very funny. Perform in schools? You'd better find out how THEY define things like "bullying" and "hate speech" or other catchwords. The usual one is ANYTHING that makes the other person feel bad. Lets take the "bounce/no-bounce" balls as another example. How do you guys use those? Of course, they are intelligence testers. It bounces high for the magician, wow I'm a genius! It doesn't bounce for the child, wow you're an idiot! Good move fellow magi! Oh, what IF the child really has problems, and you do this to him/her? Why not get some jacks from the dollar store. Have a contest to who can play jacks the best, the entire time saying you are the best jacks player in the world! They use the ball that can bounce. When the time comes, and you gave a prize to the best child, it's your turn. BIG build up, you switched the ball of course, and everyone looking cause you are going to do "tensies", and...... THUD People, you can dismiss me if you wish. That is your right. You can be like all the magicians that people REALLY don't like, that too is your right. I am simply saying that when people invite you into their homes, THEY have a RIGHT to expect some class from a professional. Just think about it... Mark Tripp PS PLEASE don't miss my core point. The PC aspect of this is nice, and should be thought out. BUT The real point is that YOU as the professional performer should be able to "mug" your way into getting 5 or 6 BIG laughs out of a prop that only gets 1 when you do it to a child. It is simply a better show that way. Not ticking people off and making children cry is gravy on some very good mashed potatos.. ...unless you are on Adtkins then pick your own example! |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Hey You All, I’m sitting here with a diaper on my head now, man is it funny. My wife is calling 911, I’m sure she’s just wanting them to come see the fun. Lol
Just in case some are serious about using this bit, let me throw out my real feelings about it, and it’s not to play a child expert, I’m not, it’s mostly common sense stuff. You can take it or leave it. Here’s why I think using a diaper in your show for kids is a bad idea. Once we start potty training a child, age 2,3, 4, we start telling them that diapers are for babies. “You’re a big boy now, use the potty.” To those who still have accidents at age 5 or even 6, we sometimes tell them that if they don’t stop it, we’re going to have to start using diapers again. “You’re a big boy now, use the potty unless you want to wear a diaper.” Some are even disciplined because they can’t learn to stop using diapers. This idea that diapers are for babies stay with children for a long time. Some much longer than others. You’re never sure when this thought has left a childs mind. Many don’t want to hear the word diaper again for a long time. No child wants to be called a baby, and if your wise, you will never bring up the subject of wearing a diaper in front of a strange child. I think the old rule “when in doubt, leave it out” still applies today. Why even stop and consider putting something in your show that might make someone uncomfortable? Certainly not just because Silly Billy or anyone else does it. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
After seeing Silly Billy in action, listening to his lecture, meeting and having personal discussions with him, I can say for a fact he makes good money doing what the client's pay him to do be... "Silly" ...and he does that very well. He can get 10 minutes out of the coloring book, 10 minutes out of the crystal tube, 10 minutes out of a thumb tip, and act silly doing this. This is David Kaye, it is his style, it is what he does well and he is in demand for doing it. He can even train others to be a "Silly Billy".
The man knows his stuff, knows his limits, and has written lots of great information on entertaining kids from his perspective and experience. I cannot nor can you be "Silly Billy". I choose to use a variation of his coloring book routine, and his crystal tube routine (with some Sammy Smith lines). This is me. On top of all this New York people as a group have a fast pace life, which is not like the rest of the country or world. Do what works for you, do what you believe in, and let those who make their choice live with those choices. This discussion bothers me in that, if you don't do it, or you believe it's wrong, then so should everyone else for the sake of improving the magic business. They are still selling "whoopiee cushions", "fake vomit", and "doggie do" in magic store for the last 50 years, so there are those who find humor in the unusual. What won't work will go by the wayside, what will...will become a classic. BE Yourself and Use what you believe works for you. Let others make their own choice.
Dennis Michael
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Well said!
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MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-09 21:27, DenDowhy wrote: There is a core problem with this, and I will be happy to explain it. If someone hires a bad band, they will NEVER hire them again, but they will hire another band. If somone hires a bad magician, they will NEVER hire a magician again, period. Roy Kissel told me that over 30 years ago, and its still true to this day. When you have to close a sale by saying if the audience doesn't like me, you don't have to pay me, it speaks volumns to the problems. I can not speak to Mr. Kay and his choice of effects. My personal opinion of his work is just that, my personal opinion. However, I will state this as a FACT. You put that crap on a kids head in a public school, not only are you not going back, but no other magician will for a good long time either. The rules are NOT the same in there. May God help you if his Mom decides to call the school and complain about it, or did you all miss the problems in another post about tricky bottles and a principal? THAT is the problem, Yes YOU have a right to be stupid, but you do not have the right to deficate on my dinner table, yet people will fight for the right to do so. I will also state for a FACT that the core concept of letting the professional (that's you) react to the problems in the show, rather than the child, is simply better theater and comedy than the easy route so many take. Still, rather than be the lemmings magicians usually are, you might want to engage your own brains, and remember that little thing called "the golden rule". Its very old and outdated, but it still applies..... Mark Tripp |
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kenscott Inner circle 1869 Posts |
WOW! Well I think this the topic is done!
But again this topic was borught up because it is Davids book. However, as people read this everyone is saying Silly Billy just pulls out a diaper and puts it on the kids head which is SO not true. He character is one that is SILLY Hence "Silly Billy". AS far as the breakaway wand Yea if you give the wand to a kid and say look what you did you BROKE it, sure they will be upset. But if your character is one that is fun and silly and you laugh at the fact the wand broke the kids are rolling. I can assure you the child is not going home with a upset stomach. I can see that we are not going to agree on this. But the written word is not good here as I think Mark said the tone of it can sound bad. Terry Herbert in the UK does a trick with a bell that rings . When he rings the bell the bell rings in his hand when he gives it to the child they cannot ring it. This is very funny. The kid is ringing the bell harder and harder and it still does not ring. Again it all goes back to the way you present the bit. So Mark sorry if my tone sounded bad. I can see that this is very passionate thread (go figure diapers. But again I too have a good resume with over 350 show a year for over 15 years now , so I must be doing something right as Silly Billy must be too. Again, I don't do this bit, but if I did I would take it from the kid and put it on my head. But I will do the breakaway wand , tels bells , etc. all day long and continue to get BOOKED and leave the client very happy and leave a good taste abut magicians with them. ken |
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magicbern Inner circle Hong Kong, China 1220 Posts |
I feel the same way too. I don't do the diaper bit but I just think that the views that Silly Billy puts forward in his book are his own and he does explain where and when to draw the line. Therefore readers are free to adapt the routines and bits of business he suggests in any way they want or don't want. Give credit where credit is due to a wonderful and generous children's entertainer...Silly Billy.
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
As for comments regarding school shows, many if not all are into building self-esteem in children and programs related to bullying. Kids calling another "poop head" just will not work in todays society. Schools are working hard to stop one child from making fun of another child. I agree this effect will not work well in schools because "Kids will make fun of Kids" and this effect has that element conducive to ridicule. Doing so would most likely end one's career in the school show business, I am unwilling to chance that.
I don't have David Kayes book, but I am willing to bet he doesn't recommend it for school shows. Like Ken I agree this topic has run it's course. As for the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" offends about 75% of the people. A study of personalities will point this out. If one here tells another to "shut up" then others can tell him to "shut up" applies to the golden rule. A more positive Platium Rule would be "Do unto others as they would like done to them." No one likes to be told to "shut up" applies here.
Dennis Michael
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MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
<<<AS far as the breakaway wand Yea if you give the wand to a kid and say look what you did you BROKE it, sure they will be upset. But if your character is one that is fun and silly and you laugh at the fact the wand broke the kids are rolling. I can assure you the child is not going home with a upset stomach. >>>
Actually sir, you can make no such assurance. I have seen it go badly, I have had it go badly for me. The best you could assure is so far it has not gone badly for you. Not quite the same thing. <<< But again I too have a good resume with over 350 show a year for over 15 years now >>> The problem with this of course is that we can throw numbers about all day long. There is an old Bob Hope joke based on it. I will simply state again that I make my entire living from performing, I have done so for over 40 years, and am pretty sure I have done more shows, more places, than most. <<<so I must be doing something right as Silly Billy must be too. >>> We would have to define "right" now wouldn't we? Again, I have my opinion about "Silly Billy", that is not the issue. I will say again the focus should not be about "hurt feelings" but rather how much better the show is when the joke is on YOU because you can milk the reaction to same. <<< But I will do the breakaway wand , tels bells , etc. all day long and continue to get BOOKED and leave the client very happy and leave a good taste abut magicians with them.>> Perhaps, but I recall an old galic saying "Oh what a gift the Gods would give us, to see ourselves as others see us." <<<But I just could sit back and watch David get blasted here. >>> I got blasted here too, what is your point? When you put things out for the public, public reaction is to be expected. All the more so when the advise is indeed "silly". Mark Tripp Quote:
On 2005-04-10 06:54, DenDowhy wrote: Pfui This assumes that a person likes being told to shut up and as such says it to others. Just living your life your own way offends about 75% of the world so that falls short too. The core point is still sound, if we treat others as we wish to be treated, we are better off. No one likes to be made to look the fool, unless they are getting paid for it. As such, I stand on my opinion and posts. Mark Tripp |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-09 09:28, MarkTripp wrote: The lessons that we learn "the hard way" seem to be the ones that we are most passionate about. Kudos to you, Mark, for having the courage to admit that you have made mistakes now and then, and have learnt from them. That action is a great example for others who wish to grow. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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kenscott Inner circle 1869 Posts |
Thanks Mark, I now see your point you are right.
ken |
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
I always try to treat my helpers as I would a guest in my own home. I show them respect and because of that, I feel they share and show the same respect back to me. I always make sure they know just how much I appreciate them coming up to help me. Without the audience, a magician is nothing.
Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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markmagic New user KY 51 Posts |
I asked a lady at a banquet the other night, if she would help me a do a trick. she stated" the last time I helped a magician, I ended up with a plunger on my head"
She did help me, but I considered her point. |
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