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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Derren Brown back on TV » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kamus
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I base my admittedly unprovable assertion on a couple of things: Increased media speculation, which could start poking holes in some of his "miracles". Of course I can see how that possibly turned to DB's benefit.

History, i.e. Masked Magician, Blaine etc. Blaine finally jumped the shark with the bubble thing. And as others here have commented, it will be difficult for Derren (or anyone for that matter) to maintain the public's thirst for the new and the pressure of the audiences's built in desire that one continues to outdo oneself. Is his latest show (I haven't seen the new one yet) going to outdo the fever pitch generated by Russian Roulette?

I also based my statement on having observed the "arc of popularity" exprienced by nearly all celebrities. The public loves them for a while, then doesn't. Obviously, DB's at his peak right now but it's doubtful that he or anyone can maintain that level of continued public focus. If you read earlier posts, you will see that others too, are expressing doubts about DBs ability to stay at the lofty heights he now enjoys.

I fully admit that this just my opinion and it's very possible that I'm 100% wrong- and indeed I hope I am, because of the obvious positive trickle down effect to us little guys. But I think my arguments , right or wrong are, at the very least ,defensible. So again- I don't really appreciate or think that I deserve the "nonsense" remark.

Quote:
b) As an amateur, I think he's very good and one can argue that he's certainly successful. I'm not sure what "real" working mentalists think of him. ...
I still fail to understand how it matters what the 'real' working mentalists think. ...

Of course you are right, it matters very little. However, I think the original questioner was just expressing a natural curiosity and one that I share, of what guys like Maven and Conover etc may think of DB. It's not an important question, no.

Quote:
c) Yes. On his lecture video, in his a curious wrap-up to Reminiscense he says that stooges are an aesthetic issue, not an ethical one. ...

I don't think DB has much to worry about, everyone thinks he uses stooges anyway. So it makes no difference.
[/quote]
Really, well isn't that going to inexorably undermine him? As long as the public has some possible explanation, wrong or not, a portion of them are going to be less interested in his work. Obviously that hasn't happened quite yet.

(
il illegetimi est non carborundum

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Roki
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I have been into magic a short time but into NLP , Hypnosis a long time professionally. Derren is obviously very skilled in all these areas. The thing I believe really works in these areas is not primarily technique but the ability to cross over the boundaries . Most people love to move into this possible impossible zone . They want to be involved in it. If the performer is simply showing how clever they are it becomes boring very fast and you don't really care how they did it. To some degree the traditional magician had that distance and Derren too is always close to falling back into that.
In modern Hypnosis the art is much more to weave the new possibilites closely into what aperson already believes and is motivated by so that they themselves feel they are discovering magical possibilities. This for me is when all these things become real. This is when Derren is at is best and is truly inspiring.
bobser
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DB is an accomplished magician of that there is no doubt. Also an excellent mentalist and performer.
However, I find it interesting (yet understandable) that many people believe DB does both hypnotism and NLP.
I would suggest that it, because of how the show is edited (I'm a fan by the way), that it would be very easy to pull in a really good hypnotist for pre-show work. And let's not go into the NLP thing or I'll just start laughing uncontrollably.

Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
DangerMouse
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Derren started as a hypnotist, so why would you doubt that he uses this skill in his show, or needs someone else to do it for him??
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Roki
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Quote:
On 2005-04-23 07:36, bobser wrote:
DB is an accomplished magician of that there is no doubt. Also an excellent mentalist and performer.
However, I find it interesting (yet understandable) that many people believe DB does both hypnotism and NLP.
I would suggest that it, because of how the show is edited (I'm a fan by the way), that it would be very easy to pull in a really good hypnotist for pre-show work. And let's not go into the NLP thing or I'll just start laughing uncontrollably.

Bobser.

Derren definitely uses very well known NLP and hypnotic methods (I believe ,understadably ?!) The thing you perhaps find an incontinence issue is whether he uses it to achieve his results or as a an induction to belief.
I have to tell you that's how most NLP works anyway in my opinion. I've been laughing at it for years. The real work is rarely the part that is seen . I think NLPers have been pretending to do magic for years when what they are really doing is something else. When it crosses over it works as I said in my post.
Nikodini
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Derren does not use NLP. Have you read any of the interviews with the man or read any of his books? Are you just trying to plug NLP?!?
kamus
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In Pure Effect Derren says he does use ideas from NLP (the eye thing for example) but dismisses a lot of NLP as "wooly guff"
il illegetimi est non carborundum

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Daffyd
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Derren dismisses NLP as he doesn't want anyone else to explore it and find out his methods. Most things he does uses NLP and psychology.
"The layman is such an idiot." salsa_dancer
delbmarcs
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Why so much emphasis on what to label the method used in the BMX effect?

I'd much rather start a "Derren Brown appreciation" thread celebrating the fact that we got such a killer example for free.

Oh yeah, also, total concentration on the language issue neglects mention of the lengths to which they went to set up that room to be so visually persuasive...
The thing about doing the impossible is that you've got no competition.
Nikodini
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Quote:
On 2005-04-23 15:13, Daffyd wrote:
Derren dismisses NLP as he doesn't want anyone else to explore it and find out his methods. Most things he does uses NLP and psychology.


Heh, yeah... riiight.
Roki
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Derren uses inductions regularly that are almost word for word copies of Richard Bandler inductions and he {R.B.} made a living from copying other people . N.L.P. stands for Nationally Licensed Plagiarism . Am I promoting it ?
Both fields are crawling with people who like to give the impression they have some great secret knowledge that is worth £$£$£$£$.
If you practise these things for real you soon find out what actually gets a result and what doesn't.
However we can still "make use of " these popular techniques precisly because they are popular . People find them believable and that gets your foot in the door.
If you think you know something because these people have told you what they are really doing Well....
magic in mind
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Dear roki you think db definatley uses nlp etc.sorry your very wrong.please could you give me an example of an effect (please don't say bmx).in which nlp was required.isnt it strange if hed just gone on tv did a card trick for j.ross.wouldnt be very good would it?now add a little psycology and viola.its not really psycology either its kiddology.im a fan of derren.however I find it amusing that some people fall for this angle hook line and sinker.db uses misdirection as he says.thats the miss direction.your looking in the wrong place.anyone who has seen his latest show ,the bit where at the end where a video is shown of how he used subliminal messages in the act to acheive the effects.really?why did he need to do certain things and certain gimmicks(carnt say in this forum)and why was mark paul and others behind the scenes? read some of the classics of mentalism and see derren has just modernised a lot of this .i see his latest tour had a banachek and max mavern feel.they don't use nlp .
DanielLove
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Just one question,

The chap from the BMX effect (the fantastic actor Simon Pegg from Shaun of the dead/the guy from "Spaced")

Which is more likely?

His "ultimate" present being a BMX he never had as a child OR a leather Jacket?
Considering Mr Peggs style, career and income I really doubt a leather jacket is going to be a "gotta have" item for him... it's far more likely he's going to want a gift with an emotional or sentimental value (in my opinion.)
For me I found this effect pretty weak just because it didn't sit right on that level. As for the very well planned out "nlp/subliminal" (yeah right) script and the fact the room had been so well set up to "suggest" a BMX, for me that just oozed the fact that this effect had some serious preshow work involved - you've got to have quite some time to write a script and set up a set like that. Now if Derren had given Mr Pegg a brick (or something just as lame) for a gift THAT would have been impressive... I mean if you are showing how you can make someone accept anything as a gift... why a BMX? It just seems to me that a BMX IS the "gotta have" item for a young trendy actor with a sense of humour... it fits, a leather jacket dosn't.
Shame because if the forced gift has been something terrible, or the real gift had been something more interesting/plausable then the effect would have been amazing. I suppose there must have been limitations in the methodology.

My guess is that the effect we see is different from the effect Simon sees.
We see the effect as shown,
Whilst simon see's an amazing Prediction of his perfect gift followed by his written confirmation changing.


Otherwise though, I am REALLY enjoying the new series, it's a lot of fun.
Roki
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Thanks for your response M.i.M.
I'm really not getting my point across at all . Does anyone get it?
Maybe I'm just stating the obvious.
I know DB is not using NLP to achieve his effects but more as a convincer I.E.its designed to make you think something has happened and then you persuade yourself it has. However in 15 years in the psych field I have seen NLP/hyp is 80% convincer itself.
BMX ? Please ! Im not in the inner mentalist forum but I know that his hypnotic language is a convincer . He is making use of the easily available techniques
popularised by NLP. In my opinion Nlp is definitely not required in any of his effects and would be a very hit and miss method of achieving anything. He simply makes use of it .Obviously.
There is however some aspects of hypnosis that have an indirect effect or influence that is useful to him , mainly compliance . Its just part of the mix.
Nikodini
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BMX bike... this should make it clear:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trix/9840608/

If it doesn't then you should study more.

As for NLP being used, yeah, DB uses it as a red herring so you don't look at what's really happening behind the scenes. NLP is nonsense and people who think it works are just self-deluding themselves or are the part of NLP economy and enjoy making loads of money from gullible folk.
hkwiles
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Yeah, look how many posts his highly edited TV show has generated. Some people (Un specified noun I believe in the NLP Meta Model?) must have sad lives if they spend all their time analysing what some one else says or does. Just enjoy the entertainment...or take a walk in the countryside, breathe some fresh air... anything that is more beneficial than wasting time disecting something so mundane as this.


Howard
Ken Dyne
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I think it is interesting that people spend so much time working out methods and very little looking at how Derren IS, what he does and why he does them. Lookign at the true merits of his success, his presentation and skill. There are a ton of threads dicussing how he did this trick and that trick, and very few on, "Why do we like him?", "Why is this addictive TV?", "What is he doing that is so right and makign the public and magicians alike go crazy for it?", and whats more the thinking of, "How can I interpret this and make it work in MY style and for myself?"

Just a quick rant.

Best,
Kennedy
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Daffyd
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It's very annoying when people discuss Mr Brown's methods. They only do it to show how clever they must be. I'm sure they wouldn't like their methods or products discussed.
"The layman is such an idiot." salsa_dancer
DanielLove
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Still whatever you think isn't going to change the fact that almost everybody who sees a mentalism performance is going to pull it apart over a drink or dinner with friends, trying to find the secrets. It's human nature, we're problem solvers. If something dosn't fit what we know to be true, we can't help ourselves.

If you find that stressful then give up in mentalism because I very much doubt shouting about it in magic forums is going to change human nature.

Most people won't go as far as to do a search for it on the internet, but some will, some may even buy effects and books from magic stores to solve the riddle - if someone wants to know the secrets, lets be honest - it really isn't very hard at all to buy them (or at least enough information to work out an effect)

If we are going to perform an "art" based on lies and deception we can't get angry when people try to discover the truth - as frustrating as it may be.
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Perhaps not. But perhaps we can get angry when people try to do so publicly for no apparent reason other than to show how clever they are.
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