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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Derren Brown back on TV » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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DanielLove
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Well as far as I am concerened I havn't given away any "magical secrets" in my posts.
If I have then sorry, but I can't see it. Unless we arn't allowed to use the word "preshow."

I thought I had simply made a post on why the effect didn't seem quite right to me, because the logic of the story didn't seem to fit as well as it could have.
Roki
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20 years ago an NLP book was written in which Mind Reading was described as a distorted view of someone else where we project are own feelings onto them deluding ourselves that we know what they are thinking. It's still popular today.
dr chutney
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I can see this topic running all series!

I'll stay out of the NLP, methodology debate here and just concentrate on Show 2, which I thought was a great improvement on the first one. From the 'polite mugging' to the dancing tables at the end I really enjoyed it.

I remember some time ago a BBC documentary on Ricky Jay in which he did an effect with a couple, got them to shuffle and spread a deck and gradually remove cards from either end while he told a story that had a Japanese flavour. Eventually they ended up with one card which matched his prediction. The Mr and Mrs Ross effect brought that to mind again. Two different effects but similar in style. Inspiration, or pure coincidence?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-04-24 08:04, DanielLove wrote:

Still whatever you think isn't going to change the fact that almost everybody who sees a mentalism performance is going to pull it apart over a drink or dinner with friends, trying to find the secrets. It's human nature, we're problem solvers. If something dosn't fit what we know to be true, we can't help ourselves.

There is litte in mentalism that can't be handled with a little pre-show "we have your cat and if you ever want to see it again with all four paws...( and here are a few whiskers just to show you we mean business ". Using staff in place of 'innocent volunteers' works very well too. Anything left? Perhaps a little technology? If you feel up to it, you can get almost anything you want from good modern wireless technology and use that same technology to get your info from assitstants via sign language or directly via a reciever or... for the very brave, cochlear implants or just plain old bone conduction. So there you are. No big secrets left except how to entertain. That seems worth discussing.

That said, the actual problems seem to be confusing what you see in the show with what can be done only inside the frame of the staged show, or perhaps only what can be done almost impromptu. The problem is inside the naive and insecure. It's a show, not reality. Pulling apart someone's Television show might be useful if we did it shot for shot and discussed how the editing and music helped the effect.
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enriqueenriquez
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Derren Brown does everything with sugar, lots of sugar...
Roki
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Quote:
On 2005-04-24 17:46, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[ .. So there you are. No big secrets left except how to entertain. That seems worth discussing. ...

Absolutely Jonathan. This is where its at. I think how different people respond to magic and mentalism is more interesting than the methods I'm using. I like to see how people are interpreting and how they are enjoying it and try and follow their lead as to how to amplify their fascination and fun.
Is there a thread on this somewhere?
richpoyle
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Having missed the first episode, can I simply state that I really enjoyed the second episode? Compared to the 1st series of Trick of the Mind, this was much more like the Derren of old. I *loved* the ring box effect. I don't care in the slightest how he did it - it was just a brilliant, simple routine, which from the interviews that followed, was clearly enjoyed by those concerned.

As for Joe/Josephine Public's perspective? I've made my wife watch Max Maven, Luke Jermay, Richard Osterlind & Andy Nyman. According to her, they all put on great shows but she thinks Derren is the best.

Let's face it, Derren has a prime-time magic show on National TV. I think Paul Daniel's was the last to do that. Every other TV magic show I've seen recently has either been in a ridiculous time slot or on a satellite channel.
salsa_dancer
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Why the necessity to determine how everything is done all the time? Is it so you can sit smug in your airmchairs - Well clearly this isn't the case as you get people presenting their 'look how cooool I am because I can guess how it is done' posts.

Is it necessary to dissect everything that is seen on TV, are people not capable of just sitting back and being entertained these days?

We are not the general public. With the added knowledge we have, based on research that we have put in, we know a little bit more. What is happening by this discussion of methods and techniques on an open forum is that it is making it accessible for people who want to guess how it is done to come along and find out using this experience. This dilutes the current performers work that is being discussed, which is completely unfair.

I was always under the impression that this place was a community to 'aid' each other in the progression of the art. This thread highlights everything it shouldn't be, the open discussion of techniques rather than the helpful pointers towards the places to learn.
Jonathan Townsend
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What specifically is the fuss about NLP?

Is there some claim in the Bandler books folks find objectionalble?
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Roki
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If you argue with something you tend to perpetuate it . Curiously when a few recent posts have tried to broaden the discussion they have been accussed of analysing and then we go right back to the beginning . Now I'm doing it!
Why not try building on the interesting points that you read and ignoring the rest .
Anyway
Thanks Richpoyle for a positve note and did your wife say why she prefferred Darren.
I am currently playing with the mix of magic /mentalism and am fascinated by the variety of responses people have even to the same material. It was Derrens work that got me into magic and still I find him the most inspirational of presenters. However it is the way people respond to him that is the interesting part , not his technique .
How to elicit that wonder and fascination ??? What are we learning from our spectators ....?
baker street
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Nikodini and Roki are of course correct. Derren uses no NLP and 'he personally' uses no hypnosis. Tons of pre-show and yes (not happy with it but I understand it) a 'few' stooges/actors.
However, THIS is television. And there's not one thing wrong with that.
At the beginning the remit from Oconner was to create a mentalist type of performer who could do things that the rest of the magic fraternity would simply be lost over. Nyman was Oconner's man but as most of us know he didn't fancy it. Personally I think that's a decision he rue's to this day. And will probably never quite be able to forgive himself for!
Not many know exactly how their effects are done and that's how edited work 'is'. You just CAN'T know.
Finally this was never about the close up magician they took from the small restaurant in Bristol.
It was, and always will be about Oconner, Britland and Hinkman. The team who actually write ALL the stuff and arrange how everything is to Happen: WHAT, HOW, and WHEN. The pros understand this and applaud them. Also their frontman, Derren Brown, who, all things considered does a pretty good job.
Oh and to 'Kennedy' who asked why we like the programme so well, it's because it's the only one out there!
The best psychological tool used by Objective and Channel 4 is in the agreement between them that no other person, under no circumstances whatsoever, will be 'manufactured' (as DB was) to cause any form of competition.
Having said all of that I'm a supporter of the show. They've done an excellent job and should be thoroughly applauded by all of us. But there will not be any competition to it until Andrew Oconner decrease that it happens. Believe me he is that powerful now.

baker street
Theo
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Quote:
On 2005-04-24 17:32, dr chutney wrote:
I can see this topic running all series!

I'll stay out of the NLP, methodology debate here and just concentrate on Show 2, which I thought was a great improvement on the first one. From the 'polite mugging' to the dancing tables at the end I really enjoyed it.

I remember some time ago a BBC documentary on Ricky Jay in which he did an effect with a couple, got them to shuffle and spread a deck and gradually remove cards from either end while he told a story that had a Japanese flavour. Eventually they ended up with one card which matched his prediction. The Mr and Mrs Ross effect brought that to mind again. Two different effects but similar in style. Inspiration, or pure coincidence?

Peter Duffie performs a similar effect called Echo, I think, which is just as good as Derren's 'coincidence'.
The Gentleman
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I suppose a certain area of this little discussion could be sorted out by defining "hypnotism". Remember that pretty much everyone uses it as a catch-all word for all sorts of things.

Could one of the previous posters who said Derren doesn't use hypnotism explain what they mean by hypnotism?
Don McCleod
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Quote:
On 2005-04-25 14:57, baker street wrote:
Nikodini and Roki are of course correct. Derren uses no NLP and 'he personally' uses no hypnosis. Tons of pre-show and yes (not happy with it but I understand it) a 'few' stooges/actors.
However, THIS is television. And there's not one thing wrong with that.
At the beginning the remit from Oconner was to create a mentalist type of performer who could do things that the rest of the magic fraternity would simply be lost over. Nyman was Oconner's man but as most of us know he didn't fancy it. Personally I think that's a decision he rue's to this day. And will probably never quite be able to forgive himself for!
No one knows exactly how their effects are done (other than a tiny group of us) and that's how edited work 'is'. You just CAN'T know.
Finally (and this is to those who have a modicum of common sense in broadcasting presentation)this was never about the close up magician they took from the small restaurant in Bristol.
It was, and always will be about Oconner, Britland and Hinkman. The team who actually write ALL the stuff and arrange how everything is to Happen: WHAT, HOW, and WHEN. The pros understand this and applaud them. Also their frontman, Derren Brown, who, all things considered does a pretty good job.
Oh and to 'Kennedy' who asked why we like the programme so well, it's because it's the only one out there!
The best psychological tool used by Objective and Channel 4 is in the agreement between them that no other person, under no circumstances whatsoever, will be 'manufactured' (as DB was) to cause any form of competition.
Having said all of that I'm a supporter of the show. They've done an excellent job and should be thoroughly applauded by all of us. But there will not be any competition to it until Andrew Oconner decrease that it happens. Believe me he is that powerful now.

baker street


David Britland is not, and never has been, an Objective employee in the traditional sense. He was brought on as a consultant and is a free agent. I am pretty sure that whilst David has been a great asset, we should not discount the contribution made by Antony Owen, Andy Nyman and Peter Clifford.
magic in mind
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The thing that worries me is...some people believe that the effects are acomplished through suggestion, etc. Now what would happen if some one let the cat out of the bag. Some nosey jounalist who maybe has a partner into psychology, etc. Would the public be happy, that all along it was mostly magic? Remember Uri Geller? It' a hard thing, as a mentalist do you pretend to be a real psychic mind reader, or put a spin on it as DB has? Personally and I know lots will disagree. I like to use a doesn't matter how this is accomplished approach.just sit back and enjoy.you don't think of blue screens and industrial light and magic when you see a Star Wars film. I use many methods, just enjoy. P.S. There are very clever individuals out there who can replicate many if not all the stuff on DB shows. My wife included, and no there not guesses. They are based on the most likely options. Take the jewelry box effect, very well presented but nothing more than any magician could do. Now you see it now you don't.
Roki
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Baker Street , that is fascinating . A whole other level of preshow! To me if it creates that wonder in the observer then it's magic . I can learn from that.
Nick23
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I'm just waiting for sky one or channel 5 to show "secrets of a physiological illusion revealed" Smile Will that have any effect do you think?

Just watched ep3. Was ok, the only good one in my opinion was the last time keeping effect.
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baker street
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On 2005-04-25 15:50, Don McCleod wrote:
Quote:
David Britland is not, and never has been, an Objective employee in the traditional sense. He was brought on as a consultant and is a free agent. I am pretty sure that whilst David has been a great asset, we should not discount the contribution made by Antony Owen, Andy Nyman and Peter Clifford.


Britland has never been an employee in any sense, whereas Owen is. But Owen isn't really a thinker. Rather he kind of fixes small puzzles. That's what he's good at. Nyman helps with portrayal,since he's done a bit of acting, but Britland is the thinker in the group and the one Oconner leans on most.

Having said that it's Hinkman who came up with most of the stuff in this series, along with two young writers Oconner is pulling through. However more of them at a later date!

baker street.
Colin
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I did notice that Barry Jones and Stuart Mcleod (VERY sorry if I got their names wrong!!), the two excellent magicians from Magick on channel four maybe a year ago now, were consultants on the show.

Col

ps: If you haven't seen the Magick show if is fantastic! a very different take on a magic show.
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bobser
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Actually I'm not sure if they really did help out at all. I think they might just be on 'extremely friendly terms' with Derren.
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