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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Derren Brown back on TV » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Nick23
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He is misleading people... With great power comes great responsibility Smile If people want to be like their idol that is their own business. If you like Michael Jordan, you learn to play basketball, if you like jimmy hendrix you learn to play the guitar, If you like Derren Brown you should learn magic not psychology.

It would be like learning to sing because you like Millie-Vanilli when instead you should be learning how to lip sync.

Quote:
It's an ACT. If people don't realise then that's their fault.

Hmmmm. I honestly don't think people know its just an act though. Im sure a high percentage of the people who watch him live or on TV think what he is doing really is based on psychology. To say its there own fault is a little harsh after all, his presentational spin does it make partly plausible.
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
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Smoking Camel
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Nick I appreciate your comments and observations but I find it an argument based on a bad premise. Afterall Mentalism is about entertaining people via some supposed power or occurence. If Derren on the other hand came out and said that in fact everything he is doing is not based on psychology but on decpetive techqiues then his sows as would the whole of mentalism would loose its appeal. What would you suggest derren did? Do you perform mentalism?

Furthermore Derren answers the issues that you set out, If you take a physchology course you would learn something about physchology. On the other hand if you took a course on aura reading you would learn very little. Perhaps the decision was life changing however one could argue that it was not a detremental decision. Furthermore life decisions based on wanting to be someone else, I argue, would be the main fault in the first place. Thus its not derren that's at fault but the one that wants to be him. But based on your specific example, the decision taken is not based in stone, itcan change courses back to whatever it was.

No amount of courses will make you someone else. Thus if people are jumping on speed reading courses its their own fault for wanting to be someone else. You may argue then, that they have been enspired to perform mentalism by derren and they think speed reading is the way forward. Well after a course they will learn that's not how its done and will look else where. All performers learn by trial and error at first. A bad performance teaches on how not to perform.

In the end, the argument can be swung both ways. If performing mentalsm has these outcomes and onedoeasnt like it then don't perform mentalism. Furthermore derren is acting responsibily, afterall he could have taken it the psychic route and inspired people to take courses is psychic stuff.
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
D.Paul
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The show is on tonight at 10:30 E4
Daffyd
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Thanks for the info. D.Paul
"The layman is such an idiot." salsa_dancer
Jordan Waller
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At first you are all more or less supporting Derren with the "oooo I cant wait till the new series starts", "ahhh when does the new series start", "blaaahhhh Derren realy is great I love the way that he did that bit with the minds when he said that he......" GOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!
Then later your putting him down because the he used some editing.

What your forgetting is that many of you were complaining at the likes of Marc Paul and Jez Rose who did not rely too heavily on editing when using gimmicks likee the TT etc. You complained that they pretty much exposed the gimmicks that people could reverse engineer the effects, ruing effects that were n YOUR repotoir. Then all of a sudden your kicking off again because someones got the Brains to edit out the visible compromise, so you cant see the method. The idea behind performing magic and mentalism is to leave the spectator with no idea of how this was published.

You are seeing this way too much through the eyes of magicians, not lay people.
Why can't you just congratulate the guy. It's the same with Blaine. I mean not being Blaines biggest fan myself I can see certain arguements but I still respect him and what he's done/doing. Just enjoy the series for what it is.
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Nick23
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Are we all supposed to be “yes men” here? I didn’t realise we weren’t allowed to change our mind or criticise a performance just because he is famous?

Anyway, I thought todays show was much better than last weeks. The ring box effect was nice, more "traditional Derren" Smile
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
-- Harry Blackstone, Jr.
salsa_dancer
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The problem is often criticism because they are famous. Which quite frankly stinks like day old cabbage.
Nick23
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Yep, sometimes that's true, also sometimes its just because they see areas that they feel could be improved.

If its one thing I've learned during my 18 years in magic is never get complacent and think everything is perfect the way it is. There is always room for improvement.
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
-- Harry Blackstone, Jr.
Nikodini
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I watched the latest episode again and uploaded a few screenshots. I know how frustrating it can be, to all of us in north america, not being able to see this so this should help maybe just a little bit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/trix/

If you have any specific questions, ask in comments on flickr (get an account... it's free). Sorry about "out of the order" sequence (hint: you can see magnify the pics and see them in original size).
bobser
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Quote:
On 2005-04-18 13:14, Neil wrote:
It's an ACT. If people don't realise then that's their fault.

If you change the word 'ACT' for 'CON' is that still ok?

bobser
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J ack Galloway
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Why would it not be?
In the end it comes to the same.

People being separated from their money.
The partial loss of life via time.

And what you personaly hold to be truth.

Jack

H.O.A.X
Harry H
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Loved a Jonathan Ross quote from this weeks show. "I know some magicians, can force a card on you, that they want you to choose - I don't know how they do it, but I know that's what they can do. But this [card effect he'd participated in] wasnt like that."
Not his exact words, but that's the gist. None so blind, eh?
bobser
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One of the tables I was at last night (Groucho's in London) had Jonathon Ross' brother. Wow, he's put on at least 3 stone since I saw him last.
Told him he was massive. He just laughed and stuck his hand in my pocket.
Made me smile.

Bobser (Anyway, I see Derren's back on the box)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Nick23
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What was the overal opinion of show number 2? I thought it was better than the first one.
Nothing I do can't be done by a 10-year-old...with 15 years of practice."
-- Harry Blackstone, Jr.
The Gentleman
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I liked the wallet-wander; when I heard it described it sounded like pickpocket magic, but it wasn't at all: DB sets people up on the street into a pattern of willingly giving things to him through some fantastic confusion. It actually made me think, because he touches them very little; if I were performing something similiar I would have created more points of attention by touching them in unimportant areas. I suppose what Derren did was create a trust and make it feel "fine" to hand over their possesions, which pally-touching would have actually negated. That's interesting.

I have only done this in terms of confusion before, never in terms of usign that confusion to set up a "give-take" relationship that would end in them willing giving me their wallet before I say goodbye. That entails creating trust, and that is something Derren does very well.
teejay
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To use NLP Logical Levels:
A lot of the arguments/discussion on this thread are the result of people mixing logical levels
Every body knows a drink is important to a runner
Every body knows a good shoe is important to a runner
When you ask which one is more important, you are mixing logical levels and you could argue/discuss it for 5 Café pages
BUT you will not come to a conclusion or result
I'm sure it would make great reading if we could stick to one logical level
The very knowledgeable people could work their 'theme'/thoughts/ideas to some sort of a logical ending
Other people could reply with 'relevant' points
I'm sure we would all enjoy the posts
Some logical levels we could consider are
a) How good do the public think he is?
b) How good do Mentalists think his Mentalism is?
c) Does he use stooges?
To take a) first
I'm afraid that I can't offer much as I know only ONE friend who watches DB and this includes al the members of my local Magic Group
I taped it for him because he was going out and preferred to tape a repeat of Have I Got News For You
He is a DB fan (?) and he said it was good but 'We've seen it all before'
Please post what your friends (not you) thought of the show
Also if they are into Magic or Mentalism
Cheers
TJ
Don McCleod
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I have a friend who is a senior clinical psychiatrist up in Harlow and he has seen Derren's shows. He is not a magician nor does he have any magical knowledge but he did say that Derren does stretch the boundaries of believability to the extent that he cannot take it seriously, at least from his perspective as a scholar of the psychiatric sciences. However, he did say that a large majority of the viewing public would buy it and that Derren is the flipside of the same coin that the fake psychics he so opposes inhabit.
kamus
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Quote:
a) How good do the public think he is?
b) How good do Mentalists think his Mentalism is?
c) Does he use stooges?

Good questions!
a) I think public obviously have, up till now, been impressed. However like all fads before him( Blaine, Spice Girls etc) he has run his course or is about to.
b) As an amateur, I think he's very good and one can argue that he's certainly successful. I'm not sure what "real" working mentalists think of him. I would guess, a mixture of jealousy, derision (from purists) and genuine respect, depending on who you talk to.
c) Yes. On his lecture video, in his a curious wrap-up to Reminiscense he says that stooges are an aesthetic issue, not an ethical one. Coupled with his statement that the effect is all that matters, by any means necessary, I would be surprised if he doesn't occassionally use them. As Doc Shiels points out, incredible effects are available through stooging, done properly and the rare and judicious use of a stooge can strengthen the other non-stooge effects. Of course, if you're caught, you're screwed!

I would just like to add, that selfishly speaking, I hope that he runs his course soon, at the top of his reputation with a pile of money so that he can return to being a magician again (he claims he won't) write more great books and create more great magic. He has so much to offer in this way.
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The Gentleman
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I think that he has evolved as an entertainer; that Reminiscense thing was filmed considerably before he got his series.

I have yet to read "Absolute Magic", but I hear he goes back on some of what he said in Pure Effect.

Edit: I may have made this up.
salsa_dancer
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Quote:
On 2005-04-21 09:56, kamus wrote:
<snip>a) How good do the public think he is?
b) How good do Mentalists think his Mentalism is?
c) Does he use stooges? <snip>

Good questions!
a) I think public obviously have, up till now, been impressed. However like all fads before him( Blaine, Spice Girls etc) he has run his course or is about to.

Good heavens above! What are you basing that nonsense on? His sell out tour or the fact that his TV show has been moved from a late night slot to a prime time slot?

Quote:
b) As an amateur, I think he's very good and one can argue that he's certainly successful. I'm not sure what "real" working mentalists think of him. I would guess, a mixture of jealousy, derision (from purists) and genuine respect, depending on who you talk to.


I still fail to understand how it matters what the 'real' working mentalists think. They are not the target audience, and how can they complain if by the nature of his work it will be putting bums on seats for their own shows. I kind of get it, I suppose they are fed up with being compared to 'that guy on telly'. Only a problem if they are saying 'You are not as good as...' in front of it, which is probably the case for many people.

Quote:
c) Yes. On his lecture video, in his a curious wrap-up to Reminiscense he says that stooges are an aesthetic issue, not an ethical one. Coupled with his statement that the effect is all that matters, by any means necessary, I would be surprised if he doesn't occassionally use them. As Doc Shiels points out, incredible effects are available through stooging, done properly and the rare and judicious use of a stooge can strengthen the other non-stooge effects. Of course, if you're caught, you're screwed!

I don't think DB has much to worry about, everyone thinks he uses stooges anyway. So it makes no difference.
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