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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Harley, what exactly does this mean, copyrighted?
What was your method for doing so? What was your reason for doing so? In the long run, isn't this a bit presumptuous? From one pro to another, I think we can agree that you are absolutely not the inventor of this effect, nor are you the only person performing it. The most you can do is to copyright your own EXACT performance method, and nothing more. The moment anyone goes just a small bit away from this exact method, they could then claim their own copyrights, ect. I have seen your copyright "warning" now several times in various discussion groups/threads, and if you ask me (and I freely admit that you did not) all it does is provoke and intimidate -- needlessly. |
MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Actually, as Houdini learned, pantents and copyrights do not apply to the stage.
He got a patent for the milk can, and it stopped no one. When he invented the water cell, he "playrighted" it. That kept everyone from doing it, save "Miss Unda" who we all know was stopped and her tank smashed when Houdini sued. As to this specific situation, I don't know that much about it other than Mr. Newman discussed it in detail in a lecture for the late Brian Flora and that discussion is on the Flora tape. I do not recall anything at the lecture at the time, or on the tape, speaking to this. In terms of the golden rule, I'd leave it alone as he is asking, but I'd suggest that things you don't want other magicians to do should not be done at lectures or at their conventions. The name Don Alan should make the point plain. Mark Tripp |
Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
We can patent equipment, if it's a substantial development of a past idea, or if it's new.
We can copyright our presentations (at least in the US), as theatrical scripts. Here (and I have no knowledge of Australian copyright laws and processes, Chance) we submit either a written script, or copies of a videotaped performance, to the Library of Congress. There's a modest fee to do so. But at the end of the day, it secures our rights to our own performance. Supposedly, this means that if we put a lot of work into doing something different, we shouldn't have to be concerned about other people using our work in unethical ways. Unfortunately, our intellectual property is not covered, in cases where we figure out how to do a stunt. I mention it periodically, because some of the things I've developed, which are signature-piece material, have been "borrowed" by other performers. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive and insecure. But here's my thinking... I've run into a couple of problems with "borrowing" of material. One is the obvious one. Somebody thinks that since I do something a certain way, they can too. I've seen quite a few discussions on this board, about people "borrowing" somebody else's work, or not citing sources, in published work. Often, those discussions are ferocious, and I've watched some folks that I know to be good people, get ripped new bodily orifices. Me? If I want to use something that somebody else developed, I ask their permission. Or I can buy their books, or equipment, which is a payment. And then ask their permission anyway, if it's appropriate. The other problem I've run into, involves taping of a show, and there are two parts to this problem. If I appear on a television show, I contract it as a one-shot deal. They have the right to use the material, only for the program for which it's taped. They can't resell it, or use it in another format. This is supposed to enable me to make a living from my own material. If a video clip ends up in another TV show, it means that somebody other than myself, is earning money from my work, and I'm not. I have a problem with that. If it's a low-budget show, at least they could ask. Then it's my choice. The other thing is bootlegging. If somebody tapes a performance, makes copies, and sells them, by most legal standards, I'm entitled to part of the income. And that entitlement is both ethical and legal. Bootlegging is, by definition, neither ethical nor legal. I have found situations of each sort, where my image and/or material was being used without my permission. I know of a person in Europe who's selling bootleg tapes right now, but it's just too far away, for me to deal with it effectively. I have some friends who ended up having their pictures used for a global advertising campaign for a tobacco company, and they received no payment, and didn't even smoke. Ooo, they got some fame, but did it pay their bills? No. So all I want, is to be able to make a living from my own work. We in the performance business have legal disadvantages, in terms of our product. If we made a toothbrush, and sold it, there's a solid thing that changes hands, and record-keeping that goes along with it. With performance, it's much harder to define. We, personally, are the product. Our routines are the product. So we protect ourselves the best we can, eh? From one pro to another, Chance, the way I use plastic wrap is my own, and I've not heard of anybody who's doing it my way. I did not "borrow" the idea from anyone for it. I can detail the times and places where the thinking behind it developed, and where I experimented with the workings and showmanship of it. I could even show you the stretch of highway near Nashville where I made the jump from the idea of giant plastic bags, to the idea of plastic wrap. It was cold and raining, I was running 103 degree fever, and was in the middle of a particularly gruelling tour. No matter, it's a signature-piece stunt. Maybe it seems presumptuous of me to lay claim to my work, and want to make a living from it. If you feel provoked by that, Chance, that's your feelings, but I bear you no animosity. I'm curious to know why you feel so threatened. We could take this discussion to PMs. Your choice.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
I'm not threatened or uneasy about where this conversation is going, Harley. Quite the opposite really. Your letter was thorough and thoughtful, and I do appreciate it.
I mean you no harm either (although I do find it childish that we feel we must say so.) That said, I would just like to briefly repeat if I may, the fact that you are not the originator of the saran-wrap-escape any more than I am the originator of chains-on-top-of-a-strait-jacket-escape, my signature piece. Okay, okay, alright -- so you have your own special presentation of this effect. I even said as much in my original post. Compliments to you. I have no doubt that you worked extremely hard to develop this piece and to make it fit into your show just so. But since I do the same -- as will any hard working professional entertainer OF ANY GENRE -- without all the veiled threats and intimidation, you must excuse me if I feel that your behavior doesn't "fit". To show just how simple it is to get past your copyright, all one need do is perform your routine without the snorkle. Or with 2 snorkles. Or without the snorkle plug. Or with double the amount of wrap. Or half the amount. Or combined with a costume change. Or while naked. Or any combination of the above. And just like that, your copyright becomes meaningless. So yes, it strikes me as totally provocative and counter-productive that you stick to your guns as you do. Here's a story from my own experiences: For my first trip to Australia (Vienna is the capitol AUSTRIA by the way, in Europe) I noticed there were many juggling buskers, but no escape artists. It seemed like I was just about the only one. 9 months later I visited again, and lo and behold, about 5 of those same juggling acts had included either a jacket, or even jacket w/ chains into their shows. Amazing. Yet, I said nothing disruptive. Sure, I kidded them a little, but nothing heavy. Then, finally, on my 3rd trip Down Under the very next season, they had all returned to only juggling. All of them; I was the lone escapist once more. The moral of the story as I see it, is that people will experiment with something that looks good from a distance -- but they will always stick with what suits them the best INSIDE. And all the grousing and posturing in the world won't change it one little bit. Just my 2 cents, and worth every penny. Chance |
MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Ummmm..... Harley?
Why lecture about it then, and why have it on the Flora tape? If you wanted to keep it, why not keep your mouth shut? (that might seem harsh but its a quote from karrell fox over the Don Alan situation). Just asking... Mark |
Harley Newman Inner circle 5117 Posts |
Hi Mark,
I've never lectured about technique with the plastic wrap escape, and won't do it in the future. I have used it occasionally as an example of how to structure something that will have more power with the audience. In lectures, I cover psych, some history, scripting, and basic rope techniques. The lectures are not just product demonstrations, they're places to learn some real work. I'll have to go look at the Flora tape. I haven't done that before.
“You can’t depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus” -Mark Twain
www.bladewalker.com |
MarkTripp Special user Michigan 618 Posts |
Harley,
On the tape you go into the presentation in great detail, including the cork from the wine bottle line. This clearly was a lecture you gave. You MUST know when you stand in front of a group of magicians and describe an effect like that, they WILL attempt to perform it. I am not commenting on the right or wrong of that, but it just is. Don Alan spent much of his life bitter about how much of his stuff magicians ripped off. He was not happy when Karrell Fox kept pointing out that if he handn't shown all of his stuff to magicians, they would have had nothing to steal. He told me, that anyone who thinks magicians won't steal is a fool. Which is why Karrell NEVER did his real act for anyone, except laymen. There was never a convention or book or video where Karrell put what he actually did for layman. He kept that to himself. It is good advice if you have things you don't want anyone else to do; don't tell them! Shhhhhhhhhh......... Mark Tripp |
Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
(Just as a side note, while I am waiting for any comments Harley might want to add to my last post: I am honestly curious about Harley's repeated veiled threats regarding his plastic wrap escape. My questions and comments here are my own. I have no axe to grind with Harley, and nobody was consulted prior to starting this thread. Chance)
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Bretigan Regular user Milwaukee 102 Posts |
Hi,
First, the plastic wrap escape that Harley does is impressive, and, even though I have done many escapes using plastic wrap (mainly stretch / industrial wrap), I would never do the "no air" trick. In fact, I have been toying with the idea of being cuffed or tied inside a computer rack, then plastic wrap from bottom to the top of the rack, being totally encased, for the escape relay event. Sure, I would think it is "my idea" but hey, my logic is if someone is enjoying the show / act, then it really doesn't make a difference who came up with the idea. Of course, getting credit is nice. Yes, getting something copyrighted is hard, I am trying to get 2 words copywrited as we speak, and it has been almost a year. I think if I came up with a cool escape trick, I would love for people to do it, and then have me called the founder / inventer later in life. Look at my grandfather, Harlan Tarbell, he came up with many, many ideas, and not just in magic... did you know he came up with "Finger licking good" and "when it rains it pours". I think he loved doing it and helping others out. |
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