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DKristof New user Ohio 26 Posts |
I would like to respond to some of the comments:
1. First, let’s just look at the facts; there are different demographics that directly reflect education and social elements. These are understood by corporations that want to sell products and Media giants that want you to watch different types of programming. The difference between shows like “The Anna Nicole show” and “60 Minutes” is a solid example of this. The products that will be hawked during the commercials will be much different. 2. “randomdan” states that you should not judge someone by their education level. I am not saying that education is an absolute in determining someone’s intellect. However, I will say that education does play a factor in the big picture. If you do not believe that education levels are an indicator to a group’s tastes or understanding, then I find that a bit naïve. 3. “Kinesis” wonders how many of performing mentalists might be working class, thus not able to grasp the intellect required for mentalism. I believe that his statement was meant to be sarcastic. Once again, I want to state, I am not using education level as an absolute. There are many people who have shown the world that they could rise above a six grade education to achieve greatness. What I am saying is that in the big picture education does play a role. There are such things as demographics and trends with regards to culture, education level, and age. Etc. Certain types of entertainment simply does not appeal to every demographic. 4. “Shrink” suggests that I am unable to connect with certain types and use education level as an excuse in order to elevate myself. I find this a tad bit insulting considering he is judging me based four sentences I wrote in the post. Sadly I have enjoyed reading many of his posts and find them very interesting. What has happened, is that I have found that I must change my presentations quite a bit to create a rapport with different demographics. I was asking if others have had the same problem/challenge. 5. “Ksalaz1” or Ken gives an excellent viewpoint saying he actually likes performing menatlism for his construction worker friends more. This suggests to me that he has found a presentation that works for him and them. This I find much more of a helpful post than simply attacking me. El Lamo also makes an interesting post suggesting presentation style which is where I was really wanting this thread to go. 6. Vandy Grift I find was the most insulting. I never used the word “stupid” in my posts. I also never said that “Shattered” was a lousy trick. And yes I have spoken with Scott Alexander about this. I would comment more but I believe your post was only meant to be demeaning and mean spirited. 7. Unless we are a full time professional that gets to practice many times a month or even week it is difficult to adapt and understand every audience. My post was simply meant to ask if others have had a problem “connecting with a different demographic”. There is such a thing as a more educated and smarter audience. I wish we could all hold hand and sing “Joy to the World”. However the world is made up of different people, cultures, ages, religions, and yes, intelligence. 8. It would seem that many of you are saying that I am too arrogant and “stupid” to understand how to connect to every audience. It would also seem that most of the people who attacked me do understand how to connect to every audience. I find it somewhat sad that instead of helping and giving positive feedback that many of you chose to assail me on an honest question. 9. The moderator warned me that I might be opening up a can of nasty worms with this post. I should have listened |
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munger Loyal user austria 265 Posts |
"Nothing to do with education levels"
it has to do with education levels, sometimes I can not do the 37/68 force because they have troubles with odd and even |
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts |
They also need to be able to read (booktests) and write (billets).
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-15 04:52, 7th_Son wrote: Arrgh! I've run into that one far too many times! We were in Nashville some time back... in a single evening EVERY SINGLE PERSON I HANDED THE BOOK TOO couldn't read... so much for that $200.00 I invested into a good system (I use INSIGHT) |
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randomdan Regular user 107 Posts |
Quote:
“randomdan” states that you should not judge someone by their education level. I am not saying that education is an absolute in determining someone’s intellect. However, I will say that education does play a factor in the big picture. If you do not believe that education levels are an indicator to a group’s tastes or understanding, then I find that a bit naïve. But is it not also true that to judge an entire social group on one factor is equally naïve? Some of the most astute and perspicacious people I've ever met have come from what you'd define as a 'less well educated' background. Likewise, I've met some university students/graduates who have the utmost base mentality I've ever encountered. Surely we should treat people as individuals, and take them as they come, rather than acting with prejudice, trying to “pigeon hole” people based on their ‘social class’ etc. Though it is true that education may well be a good indication about how 'traditionally' or 'academically' intelligent a person might be, I still feel that has no bearing upon that person's ability to be entertained by mentalism - moreover, I feel that such a responsibility lays on the performer's shoulders, as a truly talented performer should be able to tailor their act to bring about enjoyment from any audience, regardless of how well 'educated' you might perceive them to be. R. |
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ALEXANDRE Inner circle 3024 Posts |
I don't care who you are, or what your level of "intelligence" is, if I shuffle a deck of cards, spread them, have you pull out a bunch, ask you to look them over and concentrate while I reveal them to you one by one, I'll get a reaction from you, without question, as I have been proven over and over again.
Amazing is amazing is amazing. It really doesn't matter what your education level is. The difference I've noticed is that the more educated ones seem to THINK they know how things are done and are less likely to give a strong reaction to your mind reading miracles however good. They are also more apt to feel intimidated and insulted by not being able to come up with a satisfactory answer to your miracle.
HERE'S A SECRET ...
http://www.lybrary.com/mystic-alexandre-m-354.html |
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PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
What Alexandre wrote is quite true.
However to deny there are different levels of mind in people and as a consequence of that, some people appreciate more the effects you perform is like denying that the sun exist. |
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The Gentleman Regular user SCOTCHLAND 102 Posts |
I suppose, as we keep coming back to in this forum; it might depend on what you class as "Mentalism"; attach some psychological patter to pulling some scarfs out of your ass and, yeah, that'd work.
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ksalaz1 Loyal user 237 Posts |
ALEXANDRE,
you said it. Ken
"Master of the Obvious"
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randomdan Regular user 107 Posts |
Quote:
However to deny there are different levels of mind in people and as a consequence of that, some people appreciate more the effects you perform is like denying that the sun exist. Indeed, but just because someone has had the benefit of a college education, that doesn't mean that they have a 'greater' mind than someone who is, say, a 'blue collar worker', does it. We should treat, as much as possible, our audiences as groups of individuals, and among them, there will be the more shrewd members, and also those who aren't as intelligent. But as I keep saying, a skilled performer should be able to structure his or her act to appeal to everyone. Take Derren Brown, for example. The audiences of his shows come from all walks of life - there are those who you might label as 'working class' alongside those who are the 'upper crust' of society; yet it seems to me that they all enjoy the performance equally. If we are to take what DKristof suggests as true, then surely there should be a difference between the reactions of those who have benefited from a better education and those who have not. But is this the case? Let me point out to you the reactions, for example, of the kids in the young offender's institute, and the reactions of Lord Davenport and his friends, from the first Mind Control special. It's clear that the reactions from both groups are equal - as Alexandre says, amazing is amazing is amazing, no matter who you are. R. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-15 02:35, DKristof wrote: My comment was demeaning and mean spirited. That's not very cool. I apologize and I mean that. At the same time, you are trying to insinuate something about different classes of people that I don't find to be true and I frankly I don't like to see hinted at. It smacks of elitism and I don't care for that. Pick your favorite mentalist, or someone who is recognized as a leading mentalist. They can perform and entertain just about anyone you put in front of them. I think I read in one of those little booklets that come with magic sets for children that one of the things to remember is that no matter what, if the trick fails, if you don't get the reaction you expected, the person lies about what card they took, no matter what happens one shouldn't blame their audience. Some audiences may be more receptive to you or may be easier for you to entertain. Remember that everyone is capable of being entertained, but not everyone is capable of entertaining everybody else. Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-15 10:43, The Gentleman wrote: You mean to tell me the Zig Zag don't work ala Psychic Prowess???!!! Unfortunately you've hit the proverbial nail on the head, when it comes to what some folks classify as being "Mentalism" over magic. Sorry, but the old school of thought was that we stood just on this side of a very (VERY) fine line between being a con-artist and being a showman... Just look at some of the "operations" encouraged by the likes of Larsen, Nelson and Hull in those early days that never was drawn into question or critical (cynical) scrutony like they are today. In those "Golden Years" it was very common to run mail order readings... everyone was on the Radio promoting their uncanny abilities... most of whom NEVER called themselves a "Mentalist" or "Psychic Entertainer" or any of that other Politically Correct horse dung the nit pickers believe to be important today. Even Richard Webster brings this out in some of his early tomes. Now, spreading out a bunch of playing cards, asking someone to pick up a handful and then my being able to name them, one by one as they are dealt... That's a Gambler's stunt NOT mentalism... sorry, 90% of the people that see it are going to claim a.) CARD TRICK and b.)MARKED DECK... even if that's not what you're doing, this what's going to be assumed... the public does have a bit of "wisdom" these days when it comes to the games we people play. I mean no insult to the gent that posted that description earlier, but it is a very rare bird in today's world that can use playing cards in a "Psychic Show" and not get accussed of doing Card Tricks... I've heard it from the laypeople who've watched some of the biggest names in the business work and not seen many exceptions to that rule... not even Kreskin seems to slip that one by e.g. I think it's WE as performers, that need to step up to the bar a bit (and not order a drink, but get honest about a few things WE GENERALLY DON'T WANT TO HEAR)... OUR AUDIENCES DO HAVE SOME BRAINS FOR THE MOST PART... A lot of them toyed around with magic when they were kids, just like many of us did. They learned to let go of such a nasty habit, where we volunteered to become pack-rats and junkies... (rim shot please!) If you honestly want to discuss the intellect of our audiences, it might be wise for us to consider just how much information is out there these days that lends to them an quasi-upper-hand on us -- insight into some of the things we do and how they are accomplished. We also need to stop lieing to ourselves about some of the material we do... too many of us are concerned with amusing ourselves and "showing off" vs. delivering to the consumer the kind of material and abience they are paying for. This thread has hit upon some excellent points all the way around BUT, we need to look at ourselves as well, when it comes to this issue. We need to ask ourselves if we really are mystifying and enchanting our patrons or, if we are merely delivering clever puzzles (in their mind... how are they percieving us and what we do? If you saw someone doing your material the same way you do it, would you HONESTLY be a.) Impressed; b.) Mystified; and c.) Entertained? Most important, would you walk away asking "How he did that?" or "Was that real?") My patrons generally leave KNOWING they've been in the presence of a Psychic... that's the illusion we are supposed to be creating with the things we do. We're not supposed to be insulting their intelligence by presenting obvious tricks with corny storylines or material that might look a bit too "show biz" (unless that's your objective). Well, enough for me... I'm off (always have been!) |
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ThomasBerger Special user 593 Posts |
Belief in astrology is education based.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/m......68966513 excerpt: "Not surprisingly, belief in astrology is negatively associated with level of education. [8] Among those without high school diplomas, only 41 percent said that astrology is "not at all scientific." The comparable percentages for high school and college graduates are 60 percent and 76 percent, respectively." Of the general US population, 25% believe in astrology, 36% believe in telepathy and 47% believe in creationism. The last (creatism) when broken down by education, looks like this: "By far the largest difference was by education: only 24% of college graduates supported creationism, compared to 49% of high-school graduates and 52% of those with a grade-school education." Click Here! Telepathy not mentioned, but probably along similar lines. You would think that people that believed in paranormal would get the biggest kick from it....? Tom |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-13 21:05, DKristof wrote: Of course we do DKrisyov. We are mentalists after all. And the only way we could possibly be mentalist, based on you're observations I'm sure, is by being highly intelligent. Unlike those working class 'plebs' who quite simply don't possess our cultural collateral and therefore can't even understand basic English. Can I just take the time to thank you for this fascinating insight into those thick blue-collared louts who really belong, shall we say, somewhere else? Bobser (white-collared, but in a nice way)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
A more intelligent performer might ask a question like:
I've found some audiences more difficult to entertain. From what I've noticed, these seem to be the more ... How do you alter your presntations to establish better rapport with this demographic? Have you ever noticed that jokes about capital gains tax rates don't go over well in fast food restaurants?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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ThomasBerger Special user 593 Posts |
Jonathan
You are quite correct in different markets requiring different approaches. A theatre is different to a sales meeting which is different to a restaurant and so on. Someone like Joel Bauer or Craig Karges are specialists in their market, and require totally different approaches. Tom |
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handa Inner circle Pittsburgh, PA 1357 Posts |
One thing that I've learned is both dress and speech have a tremendous impact upon an audience. I did the coat and tie thing in front of an audience of 16-year-old "at-risk" youth and made myself the "authority figure" and moving target at the front of the room. These days, when I work for younger audiences I usually do not wear a suit, but instead wear some form of casual clothing that still makes me stand out, but does not make me look like "the man" to a room full of young adults.
In addition, the props and effects that we use have to work for the audience. There are audiences that would be more familiar with Sports Illustrated than Fatal Sins for a book test. Heck, I'm lousy at math, so why would I expect anybody else to be able to do proper addition for an Add-A-No. or Magic Square effect without providing some mathematic crutch for both myself and the audience members assisting. These are things learned from experience, like (for those who originally came from magic and didn't begin with mentalism) the first time either you or a loved one accidentally spent that half dollar that cost $50 after waiting a month for the backorder to come in, or somebody "borrowed" that ordinary-looking $60 pen and it ended up in somebody else's "junk drawer" or pen cup. I've successfully performed mentalism for young audiences using comic books and stuffed animals instead of traditional office supply store mentalism props as well as worked with entire audiences who have never seen a pay envelope or knew where to find a serial number on a one dollar bill. It is a learning process, and I've made my share of mistakes. Hopefully, I've learned from every one of them and each time provide a better experience to my audience as a result of this process. Chris |
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themindreader Loyal user 254 Posts |
Hi,
Interesting Post. This is certainly somethig which I have thought about time and time again. IMHO if the effects that you perform are easy to follow and direct, then educational level does not really matter that much. Generally I find though that people under 13/14 do not understand it that much, Simon |
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ksalaz1 Loyal user 237 Posts |
Bobser,
I do hope you intended that to be funny, sort of "tongue in cheek" If it was, I got a good laugh out of it. Ksalaz
"Master of the Obvious"
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The Gentleman Regular user SCOTCHLAND 102 Posts |
In terms of "street hypnosis" and suggestion, I offer something that I think that person is going to want (if what I'm doing involves them knowing what I'm doing): If I'm working with an 18 year old bloke from some council estate offering to make everyone naked through his shades is offering something he wants -- the more he wants it to work, the easier it'll be.
My hobby would be so very different if I'd never found a video explaining "Instant Induction": 4 minutes of deepening into genuine somnambulism isn'tead of 25 minutes in a dark room, or 10 seconds of stage-style "suggestion"? Thankyou, whoever made that video. |
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