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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
I recently got eye to eye andshowedit to a few friends. Out of five, two worked out how it was done immediately.
The problemis the plastic ball which looks suspicious. Are there any UK coins available that would work with this effect? Shrink.. |
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Jim Reynolds Elite user Special Guest 431 Posts |
Hi Shrink
Using a coin is a good idea. However, I have to believe there's something wrong with your presentation if 2 out of 5 lay people are figuring out what you are doing with Eye to Eye. Maybe slowing down and "struggling" with your guesses. Or not moving their hands so close to you. Or if repeating it for a group; mixing up the options such as back pocket or adding another ball. I don't know. I'm sure a coin will appear more impromptu, but with those kinds of odds using a ball, they may suspect a gaffed coin as well. JR |
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CENDRE Veteran user FRANCE 334 Posts |
If you know what make the gaff in the coin, or the ball, I'm sure you can find very very small object of this kind (look at the pk topics) that can make a little gimmick. You put it in a little ball of putty and stick it in or on every borrowed bill or whatever you want. Then you can can do it impromptu...
Just an idea. See you soon,
Il était une fois...
CENDRE Paris FRANCE |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
Im not really interested in using objects other than coins. The reason being is that it will seem impromtu. Esp if you swap one of their coins for yours.
Two people I mentioned looked at the ball and knew straight away what was inside it. Or at least they guessed. Carrying small plastic balls isn't impromtu and smacks of dodgy dealings in my opinion. Why else would you carry one? There must be someone out there who could gimmick coins to work..They would need to be machined accurately..I did e-mail Eddie Gibson but got no reply |
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knave New user UK Newcastle 72 Posts |
Hi Shrink
I'm going to PM you about the coin. I'm sure loads of us have different presentation ideas about how to introduce the ball. Personally, I try to turn what can be seen as a negative into a positive. I treat the ball as the introduction of a foreign object. Brief abridged presentation: “I need something that you will regard as a foreign object, something you can feel and concentrate on in your hand. A coin, for example won’t work, you are used to holding a coin in your hand and you are too familiar with the look and feel of it…” (Externalise the thought etc.) “After trial and error I have found (or even leading scientists have found) that this plastic ball is the exact size and colour necessary to create the correct reaction within your mind … It is small enough so there is no possible way I can tell which hand it is in just by looking, yet large enough for you to feel the alien shape/presence strongly, which will be reflected in your thoughts…” From here you can go into in to a genuine mind reading explanation or into a body language/people reading explanation depending upon your character. You can go on to talk about how the body reacts to foreign bodies (germs, new body parts even) and how the mind is exactly the same. It works well in the right situation, but to be honest I rarely go this far. As I said, I’m sure there must be loads of different “eye to eye” presentations around by now, this one this one seems to work well for me and deals with the fact that you are introducing a prop. Regards Dave |
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Mesaboogie Special user 804 Posts |
Knave,
I'd also be interested in any info you have on a coin for e2e, Thanks |
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Eye to Eye is just the beginning(Or perhaps the second stage, but let's not get into that battle.) I predict this effect will definately be marketed utilizing a coin in the near future. I also think there will be an improvement to the gimmick so you can eliminate the silly, and yes it is silly no matter how you rationalize it, hand positions. I imagine it would be quite an expensive improvement but one definately worth making. The technology already exists and I'd venture to guess Derren Brown has created his own. As the effect currently stands, it's just not that cool, practical or fun to perform.
With the mentioned improvements, this could be the next invisible deck. If anyone has interest in designing it, I'd happily help fund it.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2499 Posts |
Platt wrote:
Quote:
As [Eye to Eye] currently stands, it's just not that cool, practical or fun to perform. How peculiar, then, that several of the country's top mentalists have chosen to feature it in their acts. ... Doug
The Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More :: (order "Calculated Thoughts" from Vanishing Inc.)
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Andy Leviss Inner circle NYC 1179 Posts |
Some folks like it and think it's great, others don't. Some think it's practical and fun, others don't. It's just like how some like vanilla ice cream, and some like chocolate--neither opinion invalidates the other.
Platt doesn't like it, some other performers do. That's up to each of them to decide for themselves.
Note: I have PMs turned off; if you want to reach me, please e-mail [email]Andy.MagicCafe@DucksEcho.com[/email]!
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Platt wrote:
Quote:
As [Eye to Eye] currently stands, it's just not that cool, practical or fun to perform. How peculiar, then, that several of the country's top mentalists have chosen to feature it in their acts. Doug, the fact that top mentalists(whatever that means) use it says very little to me. It certainly doesn't mean in the everyday world it's the least bit cool, practical, or fun to perform. What can I say, if you're a guru on a stage, people will do just about anything and won't ask questions. Anything goes. Asking your buddy Bill at work to hold an orange ball in one of his hands and then put his hands up to your temples is weird and a bit suspicious no matter how you sell it. Trust me, this effect will be improved upon. If not for the guru, for people like me. By the way, thanks Andy for the logical words. I bought Sticky Situation the other day. You're one hell of a thinker. Brian Platt
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-10-07 14:48, Platt wrote: If you own Eye to Eye, you already own the gimmick to do this. --Christopher Carter |
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Chris A. Inner circle AKA Chris A. 1123 Posts |
Quote: Yep, absolutely correct.
On 2002-10-07 19:38, Platt wrote: He's using a little logical fallacy called "Appeal to Authority" in an attempt to prove his point. As has been pointed out elsewhere, some find this effect fits their performing style quite well whilst others find it quite impractical. Both points of view are valid. Fallaciously appealing to authority with claims of "Well top mentalists use it!" proves nothing. If we all bought into this kind of "logic" than we'd all by swayed by claims that "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest Toothpaste!" That being said. Eye to Eye is a clever effect *IMHO* that is quite useful to some whilst doing absolutely nothing for others...
AKA Chris A.
Keepin' the Funk Alive |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I think the point trying to be made here is that someone could just as easily "prove" it's a "bad" trick by naming top metalists who DON'T use it. This is, of course, not limited to Eye to Eye. The same could be said (from either viewpoint) of ANY trick!
If you think it might be something you'd like/use, buy it! If you don't like it after you buy it, give it away or resell it on ebay.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
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knave New user UK Newcastle 72 Posts |
I agree with the posters above (Scott, Andy) who point out that different effects suit different performers and that “eye to eye” is probably not for everyone.
But, Platt said; “As the effect currently stands, it's just not that cool, practical or fun to perform.” He doesn’t qualify his statement and make personal to himself by saying “I don’t find it cool, practical or fun to perform.” This carte blanche statement is simply wrong; it can be performed in the situation he describes. I also agree with Doug, if any seasoned professionals are adding an effect to their repertoire then obviously it must have some redeeming features. Flip’s “4 out of 5 dentists” analogy simply doesn’t apply up in this case, we are talking about respected performers who are familiar to most of us, who aren’t recommending the product or receiving remuneration from its vendor. You may as well say that Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Dave Gilmour, Jeff Back and many other world famous guitarists choosing independently to play Fender Stratocasters doesn’t mean that it’s a good guitar and can be played well by some people. Regards Dave |
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Chris A. Inner circle AKA Chris A. 1123 Posts |
Quote: Well no.
On 2002-10-08 05:42, knave wrote: My analogy is quite correct. If, as Scott mentions, I find an equal number of "top mentalists" who don't care for a certain effect, does that make that effect less good. If 9 out of 10 pro movie critics love a film, does it follow that you'll love it too? I've seen magicians I quite respect using material that would "never" be appropriate for my performing style. Now should I go out and use the same stuff they do because I respect them? If someone tells me "well effect xyzq is wonderful! Top magicians use it!", should that vague subjective statement sway my purhcasching decision? Why use crest? Well, "top dentists" recommend it! Why use "Eye to Eye" (or any effect)? Well, Top mentalists/magicians use it! It's still quite fallacious logic whether you "respect" the authorities or not.
AKA Chris A.
Keepin' the Funk Alive |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
look guys the basic effect of being able to use body language, psychological knowledge to discover a hidden object is valid. But in my continous search to find "impromptu" mentalism the coin would only work..it makes logical sense to use a coin borrowed rather than a suspiscious looking ball.
Even as kids most of us have played this game WITH COINS..everybody carries them around. It's not the basic effect thats at question its the props and presentation. the raising of the hands to the temple is unnatural and overkill inmy opinion. Even the so called Guru's who are using this would improve the effect by using coins and not holding their hands up to the temples..It looks so much more natural to hold hand out in front. |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-10-08 10:13, Flip wrote: You are absolutley right. However, when Doug refers to top acts using the Eye to Eye effect, he is usually doing it in response ot a blanket statement that has been made to the effect that "Eye to Eye is impractical" or "unnatural," or "not an interesting effect." While each of these types of statements can be subjectively true, when generalized to the extent that they have been, the fact that many are successfully using the effect does indeed refute these statements. Note that the case would be different if the writers were saying that "Eye to Eye is not practical for me." Doug's repeated reference to top acts, (and I hasten to mention that not only top acts are finding it useful,) is not the simple analogy "experts use it, so should you," but rather "experts find value in it, so you should consider the possibility that there is more value in it that you have already found." You may disagree with the assessment, but this is a logically valid use of appeal to authority. Nevertheless, one has to recognise that Eye to Eye, like any effect, isn't for everyone. I can see that the ball, for instance, wouldn't make much sense if pulled out in the office break room. The location of the gimmicks is awkward, and if placed incorrectly, potentially hazardous. However, on this thread a very natural solution to the ball problem has already been named, and I don't see any law anywhere stating that one absolutely must hide the gimmick where the instructions tell you to. With a little thought, the gimmicks themselves are the solution to every problem that I have seen mentioned about the trick, except I suppose the assessment that the trick is dull. There I would suggest that few tricks are innately dull, but many are dull when performed without imagination. --Christopher Carter |
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ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2499 Posts |
'Twas written:
Quote:
He's using a little logical fallacy called "Appeal to Authority" in an attempt to prove his point. This is patent nonsense, of course. A claim was made that the effect in question is impractical. I provided a counter-example. This is strikingly different from the argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy. Of course people will (and should) have personal opinions about the value of an effect to them. But stating such an opinion as though it were an incontrovertible fact begs for a response. ... Doug
The Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More :: (order "Calculated Thoughts" from Vanishing Inc.)
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knave New user UK Newcastle 72 Posts |
Flip
Your argument is very sound and I agree with the statements you make. However they are directed towards a stance I never took. You say: ------------ Why use crest? Well, "top dentists,” recommend it! Why use "Eye to Eye" (or any effect)? Well, Top mentalists/magicians use it! It's still quite fallacious logic whether you "respect" the authorities or not. ------------- You see, at no time did I (or Doug, although obviously I don’t speak for him) say you should use “Eye to Eye”. You are putting words in my mouth. If anyone had said, “Use “Eye to Eye” because top mentalists do” then you would be correct. No one has. The only person to make a definite assertion so far is Platt: “As the effect currently stands, it's just not that cool, practical or fun to perform.” The fact the professional entertainers use the effect was used as an example to counter this assertion, and that’s all. It’s about context. Stating that some pro’s use the effect illustrates that a number of performers who supposedly know what they are doing do think its cool and practical to perform. If, as you say, you find an equal number of performers who don’t care for the effect, this would lead most people to surmise that it’s right for some performers and wrong for others. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. Your toothpaste analogy tells people to use a certain product because experts recommend it. I’m saying, the fact that some professionals choose to use a certain product gives us reason to suppose there may be some value in it and it may not be practically unworkable. Why do we get excited when people like Ted Lesley, Banachek and Bob Cassidy (amongst others) contribute to the forum? We value their judgement and experience. Regards Dave |
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Platt Inner circle New York 2012 Posts |
Wow. I'm glad to see so many people passionate about what makes a fallacious argument.
I am too. But I don't this is the place to discuss it. Let's be honest. Would anyone disagree that replacing the ball with a coin and eliminating the hand placement bit would only improve the effect? I didn't think so. In my opinion it would revolutionize it. Since my post I've already learned through PM's that these very ideas are in the works. No surprises there. I've been asked to help out and I'd be more than happy to. Again, with a few small improvements this could be a killer. Of course for some folks, it already is. Peace.
Sugar Rush is here! Freakishly visual magic. http://www.plattmagic.com
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