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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Did you know I'm hosting a Druid party next week?
It's B.Y.O.M. ( bring your own monolith ). Don't worry about being late, we'll all be in the back yard spending the next 20 years putting the monoliths in a circle - it's gonna be fun! A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Are there any psychics out there that would care to define what "psychic" means to them, and what specifically psychics can do (predict the future? talk to the dead? read minds?) and what is unique to psychic readings (compared to non-psychic talk therapy)?
Sludge has said here that most people don't understand the word "psychic," but the defenders of psychics here seem to be shy about defining it (ie, Sludge has not responded to this:) "Sludge: I would love to hear more about good that psychics do. As far as the palmist who averted a sucicide, obviously that should be applauded. But if I may ask, how was it averted; did the palmist use talk therapy or counseling, or something unique to palm reading, and if so, what? You said that most people don't understand the word "psychic." Please tell me what your definition is. thanks, Jim" And Socrates said: "I have no real interest in finding a definition for the word Psychic" (after asking me many questions which I promptly answered) Also, Osiris has accused skeptics of "stealing" and "bashing" (see below) that he has not backed up with evidence. Perhaps someone else out there can back them up? "Ian encourages folks (actually tells them what to do) for giving local Reader's a hard time; sucking up their time, frustrating them, and quite literally "stealing" from them (e.g. take up their time and don't pay them)." Can anyone find where Rowland encourages people to not pay for readings? I couldn't find it in my book. I asked: "Could you provide a single example of Randi or CSICOP "bashing any reputible (sic) scientific group that's even hinted at the possibility that something exists outside mankind's own intellectual prowess?" I highly doubt that that bashing has happened, but I'd be happy to look at any quotes or other evidence you have. I can't imagine a scientist or skeptic saying that nothing exists that we don't know about, or that we can't prove. But please point to sources if you'd like." Osiris: "I'm not going to go out and find a list of situations as Jimtron asked..." But I didn't ask for a list, I asked for a single example. Also, I don't believe I heard back from PK when I asked if he had any specific sources to cite for this allegation he made on this thread: "They take the view that anyone knowingly using cold reading techniques is a vile scumbag etc etc - you know the sort and the accusations they make" And perhaps badchad can back this up: "All readers are liars, frauds, and conmen." I think we can have a more productive dialogue if we communicate in an open, forthright, respectful manner and avoid making baseless allegations. best, Jim |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Can someone bring hotdog buns?
A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts |
Jim, it appears that your attempt to draw out more statistics and facts is probably going to be pointless, to each side.(If there be any "side"?) Experiences are what is missing from an online disscussion. This and most other topics here consist mainly of conjecture. If you want to believe that "psychics" don't exist, then have it so. I don't see the point in a believer of psychic phenomena arguing their point here either. There is no point. Arguing and debating beliefs only results in clashing of egos. And the whole topic shouldn't be about ego's. What's to prove, that we all have ego's and they must wage eternal war with one another ? That's all it amounts to.
If you want to know something, or how to do it. Do it, try it for yourself. Study with an open mind if you are really seeking the truth. Learn about the mind and how to get out of your "head" . And then practice over time what the techniques are teaching you. You don't learn everything from reading and debating. Do it, for a long time. Your whole perspective has to be altered from this approach. Come to your own conclusions of what "life is". There is way too much to learn outside of this forum. Confining and rehashing viewpoints here on such matters is counterproductive. Compared with the real experiences from living a full and multidimentional life. This place in cyberspace is very limited and one dimentional. Getting together in person with everyone here may not be possible all the time. But it would certainly shed a whole new light on who is who and, a different pespective of what is "true" for everyone. I bet it would appear to take on many new sizes and shapes, that would suprise even the pundits of these threads. I'm not planning to get involed in an endless quarrel, or a power struggle. But I have been with some of these people here outside of the internet. There is a bigger truth "out there". We do carry it, in side of us. Start looking there, you'll find it when all the "mind chatter" has been silenced. As in meditation......Peace. |
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
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Also, Osiris has accused skeptics of "stealing" and "bashing" (see below) that he has not backed up with evidence. Perhaps someone else out there can back them up? I do believe I stated I don't have my copy of Ian's book handy but it is in the book, in the latter chapter or two where he explains how to bait psychics, etc. Quote:
I asked: "Could you provide a single example of Randi or CSICOP "bashing any reputible (sic) scientific group that's even hinted at the possibility that something exists outside mankind's own intellectual prowess?" I highly doubt that that bashing has happened, but I'd be happy to look at any quotes or other evidence you have. I can't imagine a scientist or skeptic saying that nothing exists that we don't know about, or that we can't prove. But please point to sources if you'd like." Again, this is something that's been published in various resources including some of Gellars material where he's won court cases against Randi for defamation, etc. As John said in the above (and I think I've said it a few times) we will get no where in this kind of game. The cynics will do their best to trip me and whoever else expresses a belief and make them look the fool... they simply don't want to believe and that's how it is. They also feel that they have the "right" to force that point of view onto anyone that does believe. I've tried to convey experiences of what I have had that I'd classify as being "Psychic"... I've admitted that I can't explain them and doubt seriously anyone can. I've also tried to explain to you specifically, that there is a major difference between the exaggerrated fantasy of being "Psychic" and the perspectives I happen to hold to (which are based loosely upon what Jung, Cayce and a few others wrote). I don't have to explain it in that I've shared the sources... it's kind of like the kids around here expecting someone to cough up the inner working to Copperfield's Flying or something... it ain't going to happen. If you want answers LOOK FOR THEM the sources are available IF you chose to step foot outside the safety of the "company" idea... that's the catch though... you don't want to. You've already stated that you wouldn't go out and do REadings day in and out to LEARN... to have the EXPERIENCE and UNDERSTANDING you are supposedly looking for. Sorry, it just don't work that way and I'm tired of the game. If you want answers then do some googling and start tracking down those places that can help you find them. You don't have to sit on a mountain top and chant for decades or become vegan or any of that new age crap... you just need to do some footwork and actually experiment with an opened mind. It wont happen over night, but it will happen, that I can promise. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 10:03, badchad wrote: You are missing the point. I will not argue whether psychic systems are valid or not. I am interested in contesting the fact that not all people who believe in them do so with the intent to cause harm to others. Do you agree or disagree? It would seem, based on your statements, that anyone who reads does so with the intent to defraud? (You used the word con). Either support your statement with fact - like a good scientist would - or admit you made an overreaching generalization and are wrong. Quote:
Sorry to break this to you but here is no real magic. Buy one of Berger’s [sic] DVDs and you will see it’s full of tricks. And what do these tricks "represent"? They provide a simulacrum of magic. It is this "notion" (whether found in the real world or not) that magicians are afraid of. Artists paint pictures of dragons and no one feels the need to stand beside their work and say, "Yeah. its just a picture, a goofy one at that." Authors tell stories of horrendous supernatural occurances and don't feel obliged to take away from the readers experience in the moment by cracking jokes about "their clean -albeit severed - hands." Quote:
I personally don’t care whether you use a disclaimer or not. However, if your talking shop among others in the know, and you claim that what you do is real, moral or not, I will certainly question your intelligence level. And while you may not have an issue with the disclaimer, there are many indicative of my concerns who do. And if someone sincerely uses a method, and gives readings line for line out of the "how to read - whatever - book" how are they "not doing it for real?" You must be an excellent mindreader to know with such certainity that everyone here uses deceptive techniques in their work. Is it not possible that someone who knows card tricks cannot "read" tarot just like the book says? (Finally, and this is a tangent I reluctantly address as I'm sure it will used as a diversion for the real question at hand, but whether or not we are talking shop is irelevant. Not every one who walks in the door of this clubhouse is at the same level of craftsmanship. Take Gellar for example. I know many VERY smart magicians who have seen him work and exclaimed, "I honestly have no idea how he does what he does." Now, even though we are "all in the same shop" does that mean Gellar needs to tip his hand? What about Brown? There are may who attribute his skills skills to others professed. Should he be required to "tip the mitt" just because someone here owns color monte?) |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
John:
Thanks for your time. "If you want to believe that "psychics" don't exist, then have it so." I don't have any desire to prove or believe that "psychics" don't exist. As I've said on this thread, I would be thrilled to learn of actual paranormal power. I'm not trying to disprove psychics, or confirm my own hunches about this stuff; I'm trying to learn and get as close as possible to the "truth" or "reality" of the situation, whatever that is. Whether psyhics are "real" or not, I have nothing to gain or lose either way. But I think it would be super cool if PK and the like was real. "There is no point. Arguing and debating beliefs only results in clashing of egos." It does often seem pointless, especially when things devolve into insults and broad generalizations. But I happen to belive that respectful, thoughtful dialogue should be encouraged, although it is often frustrating. "If you want to know something, or how to do it. Do it, try it for yourself. Study with an open mind if you are really seeking the truth. Learn about the mind and how to get out of your "head" . And then practice over time what the techniques are teaching you. You don't learn everything from reading and debating." I have been reading books about the mind. Osiris said I can't learn the psychic's viewpoint without doing readings. Maybe I will try giving some readings, but I'd prefer not to, at this time. I was hoping to learn more about what psychics do by asking them, but I guess that route isn't panning out. I do agree that "you don't learn everything from reading and debating." "Confining and rehashing viewpoints here on such matters is counterproductive." Believe me, I would not and have not confined myself to this forum. Among my friends I can count believers in the paranormal, followers of many different religions as well as agnostics and atheists, skeptics, critics of skeptics, etc. The first post of this thread piqued my interest, which so far has not let up. "There is a bigger truth "out there". I certainly agree with that. |
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enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
Anybody here remember the Animaticons when they started? They were great: a couple of dots, a slash... and we saw and small, expressive, face... simple but extremely significant.
Somebody along the road decided they were “better” if the really where more realistic, leaving less room for our imagination to work (Comfort, after all, seems to be the science to make our imagination get obese). The improvement made them obvious, less evocative and powerful, but was unavoidable, since we are obsessed with making all more literal. That’s out zeitgeist, and maybe nobody can escape, but still, it’s my respectful opinion that both, psychics and skeptics, tends to over literalize the idea of “psychic powers”. Suppose someone tells you that every night he becomes a Jaguar and travel thru the night. Does that really means he transform his molecular body into the shape of a big cat? I mean, is that necessary to become a Jaguar? Maybe both, the psychic and the skeptic, should accept “no” for an answer. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
"it’s my respectful opinion that both, psychics and skeptics, tends to over literalize the idea of “psychic powers”"
How do you define "psychic powers" metaphorically, then? Or do you mean that "psychic powers" can't or shouldn't be defined or explained? I still don't understand the idea of "metaphorical predictions." Is this explained in a book or is there anywhere else I could learn more about it? "Maybe both, the psychic and the skeptic, should accept “no” for an answer." What do you mean--accept "no, I don't want to discus it"? |
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
Jimtron... now that things seem to have settled a bit I'd like to clarify something
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Osiris said I can't learn the psychic's viewpoint without doing readings. I encourage this to everyone that has questions. I cannot fully explain what happens. The accounts I've shared here defy logic in my book... they happened to me, a guy that has a bit more than an above average understanding of this stuff. I'm not alone, I've heard similar tales from others who, like myself, walk on either side of the proverbial fence. As I've said before, there's a 3% factor out there I can't explain and for that reason I have to leave the door open for the possibility that something does exist. That's been my only point. As we saw in badchad's coverall statement, there's a lot of individuals involved with magic that blanket things wrongly and without valid experience or the effort of HONEST investigation. To take the time to give direct quotes and pin-point issues... well, that's just too much for me to deal with when we know that the data exist and examples can be found. On either side of the issue we will find "questionable circumstances" and in my opinion, and I believe you would agree, what's good for the goose is good for the gander e.g. the skeptics and cynics that want to use blanket attacks, such as your young friend did earlier, need to hold to the kind of proofs and levels of messure, such as Brad's suggested in his challenge above. From my point of view and from teh many, many "Psychics" I've investigated and tested over the years, I know for a fact that most are little other than delusional individuals with a good heart that barely make ends meet doing whatever it is they do; Readings, Aura Balancing, Reiki, etc. Like Prostitution, it's a victimless scenario. Of those few (very few) "legit" talents I've met, I know that they are like I -- uncertain as to how or why they can do what they do or how it happens. Most are not in the public limelight, nor are they interested in such things. They live very simple, quiet lives and frequently make their living doing other things. I can't say that there is such a thing as "Psychic Powers"... I think the idea of such comes from generations of mis-use of words and terms. I think a lot of it has to do with the misinformation sewn into our consciousness via the auspices of religious propaganda, Hollywood and the media. Too, I think a lot of it comes from the same kind of syndrome some of the love lorn go through... the fantasy of being in love, or, in this instance, being exceptional -- Psychic. In other words, it's a fantasy -- a sort of personal psychological escapism. When I say that I'm "Psychic" I do so for a handful of reasons. Firstly, there's that old school mentalism addage that "no one wants to hire a fake mind reader"... though some people will in today's world, few of the admitted fakes see the kind of commercial demand and support we urban charlatans do... Secondly, I understand the concept of "being Psychic" as being an expansion of one's consciousness e.g. being able to see or understand the subtle. I believe this is partly intutive and empathic but too, I believe anyone can cultivate the skills of observation and communication needed for meeting said president. This is what Edgar Cayce taught and has been a prime part of my own understanding since my earliest days of investigation and trying to understand my own sense of novelty. If it is a "Power" it is but the power of knowledge. Like any form of power it does come with an exceptional sense of obligation and is not something that can be taken lightly. After all, people are entrusting us -- using us as a sounding board. Interestingly, 90% of what we do when working as a Reader, is LISTEN. The larger majority of our clients being nothing other than lonely, uncertain souls that need a nuetral shoulder to "cry on" so to speak. The role of a Reader in society is very important believe it or not. We are not papered and pedigreed professionals (actually, a large score of us actually do have degrees in counseling, religion, etc. we just don't "use" those facts because they create a stigma in the mind of the client). Stigma? Yes! Many people refuse to get the kind of professional help they need because of personal pride. They would much rather pay a Reader $50.00 and be able to chalk it up to curiosity, than humble themselves in the idea that they may need some kind of Mental Health care. Too, there are many who do not trust anything that smacks of clergy, thus they too find is "safer" to seek out the counsel of a personable Reader or, as the case may be in much of our world these days, the local barber, cabby, or bartender... anyone that can seem to connect and convey understanding. That's the real trick to it all and the purpose it serves. Most of the professional Readers I know, especially those of us involved with magic as well as metaphysics, use our time with a client as a way to sew some seeds of thought that will either lend to them tools that help them claim their personal power and control in life, or actually gain the professional aid that's required. When I was working in northern Nevada a few years ago I actually had two therapist sending clients to me for SAR sessions. Don't laugh, the fact that I was not a professional counselor in the eyes of the client allowed us to work through issues and gain the breakthroughs these professionals could not... even if they used SAR/NLP type techniques themselves... the stigma of being with a professional thwarts the therapy at times. In your studies check out the shut-eye books composed by Richard Webster. You may also wish to study what guys like Ron Martin and Herb Dewey have to say on this issue. These were men that knew magic and were part of teh magic community and yet, they were/are two of the busiest Readers out there. Same goes for Loren Tendall and scores of others, many of whom patronize this board. You may also want to PM Philemon and ask about OORT, I believe you'll find some very eye-opening revelations there as well. Enjoy the journey! |
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badchad New user 6 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 13:46, Osiris wrote: If they were working as readers and giving advise under the false pretense that they had genuine psychic powers then yes I would say they were charlatans, though I personally don’t have much of a problem with that. An “honest charlatan” like Lee Earl for example, I can respect, it’s when people think their powers are real that I think are boobs. Quote:
I guess, if you and all the other hemorrhoids of the magic world are correct, Robert Nelson, William Larsen (Sr), Burling Hull and all the other greats allied with this craft should be shunned, their books destroyed, and the entire art of Mentalism completely LOST AND THROWN AWAY in exchange for doing half-wit magic tricks free of the nuance, the psychological investment, and the aura of intrigue that makes this art form work. Hey, make your argument with things I have said not things you want me to have said. I think Mentalism is cool, way cool. Quote:
Who is the bigger crook, the shrink that intentionally makes his clients co-dependent upon him/her along with a plethora of drugs or, the psychic that gives the client confidence, direction and the ability to stand on their own two feet free of drugs and codependency? As you describe it both are crooks. It seems your admitting it now. You just feel good thinking that others are bigger crooks. Is that truly what you are getting at, or do you still hold on that your powers are genuine? Quote:
You want to go after the charlatans that sell false hope and rip off the public, start looking at the joke we call Mental Health or the pitfalls of professional clergy. Oh, I agree with you there. The clergy are another group of cons that believe their own lies and yeah I will admit that the mental health profession as problems oh plenty. That still does not mean you not acting under false pretenses yourself. Quote:
So stop puffing yourself up and talking about something you obviously know NOTHING about (other than what you read from some biased books or magazines). I know something about it, thank you. Quote:
So explain this to all the church goers and people that have faith... seems to me you're waaay out numbered on that one. Sure I’m outnumbered. However, one is neither right nor wrong because the crowd disagrees with them. One is right because one’s data and reasoning are right. However, it seems you are trying to shift the conversation elsewhere. Quote:
Proof that you know absolutely NOTHING about being a Reader, the good we do in the real world, etc. If you are worried about people that sell "False Hope" then look at insurance companies, the government, casinos, doctors, lawyers, and the clergy. Again are you claiming that you never sell false hope or only that others sell more? BTW, sometimes doctors sell real hope and cure real diseases. Now whether false hope is good or bad is an item for debate but it seems you are admitting you do sell false hope though think the good outweighs the bad. Quote:
I did say "just about..." there are those instances that I have helped break up, where real cons were afoot and people were being bilked out of thousands of dollars a shot. So a little dishonesty is ok with you? You just have your limits? One shouldn’t charge too much? How much is too much? More than you charge? Is that what your saying? Quote:
That's frightening! Even some of the most ardent skeptics I know and converse with regularly know better than that. Maybe you will discover what they mean and what I'm saying as you grow up and mature a bit. I’m sorry your frightened that there’s no real magic. You’re suggesting that Berger really does pull a shot glass of whisky from a genuinely empty paper bag using real magick and not tricks? Quote:
If you are so wise and learned, explain how people have premonitions of this kind or, as I've pointed out in other places in this thread and elsewhere, information comes through a person that has no basis, no subtle or subconscious cues, no "pre-show" insights, etc. You can't! Actually I can. Imaginations run wild, every time your imagination comes up with something that turns out untrue, it is easily forgotten. However when a thing turns out true by coincidence (as rare as the event may be) it is a highly memorable event. The principle is fairly well known in the field of psychology. Spend a little more time in the science section of Borders as opposed to the new age section and this would be clear to you too. The book “How we know what isn’t so” is a good start, so is Sagan’s book already mentioned. Also it is known that our memories are not perfect and we tend to add details after the fact that make the original event more amazing. Being involved with magic you should know this from experience, as spectators frequently describe our feats to their friends as better than they really were. Quote:
it took less than 72 hours for other skeptics to be lured into this thread (typically as the result of magicians tapping their friends on the shoulder and saying "come over here and look at this...") BadChad has a whole six or so posts at most? Tell me he wasn't invited into the rue... I wasn’t invited. Not that it would change things a bit if I were. Quote:
On 2005-05-09 18:12, truthteller wrote: No I don’t think that all who believe in psychic systems do so with the intent to harm others. A snake oil salesman does not try to harm others. I’m sure most actually hope their customers experience a placebo effect and get better or think they get better. Some snake oil salesmen may be so stupid as to think that their elixir genuine. As they say “He is the best actor who believes his performance real.” However, this does not change the fact that what he sells does not do what is claimed and he is in fact defrauding people wittingly or not. It’s just a matter of semantics where the fraud takes place. The “psychics” on this board know they study mentalism techniques and know they are lying, it seems they want to claim that 3% (or whatever) part of the time they are real. The shuteye’s deception is to themselves in thinking they are real. And no I don’t think anyone stupid enough to think that a deck of cards can genuinely tell the future is someone who should be giving others advice about hardly anything. Quote:
And what do these tricks "represent"? They provide a simulacrum of magic. It is this "notion" (whether found in the real world or not) that magicians are afraid of. Artists paint pictures of dragons and no one feels the need to stand beside their work and say, "Yeah. its just a picture, a goofy one at that." Authors tell stories of horrendous supernatural occurances and don't feel obliged to take away from the readers experience in the moment by cracking jokes about "their clean -albeit severed - hands." Not sure what you point is or how it relates to me. Quote:
And while you may not have an issue with the disclaimer, there are many indicative of my concerns who do. So what? The issue over the use of a disclaimer is one of opinion not fact. If others have differing opinions, that’s fine by me. Why isn’t it fine by you? Quote:
And if someone sincerely uses a method, and gives readings line for line out of the "how to read - whatever - book" how are they "not doing it for real?" The future is not really being told. The magic part is not real. They are just making general statements in which the sitter latches on to parts that fit, with what is known in psychology as conformational bias. It’s a slight of mind thing. Quote:
You must be an excellent mindreader to know with such certainity that everyone here uses deceptive techniques in their work. Is it not possible that someone who knows card tricks cannot "read" tarot just like the book says? One can read the tarot cards just like the book says and that’s fine. However nothing supernatural is going on. The cards are just cards and the statements are little better than fortune cookie messages, and less good than what a good cold reader can do to customizes his responses based on the sitters reactions. Quote:
(Finally, and this is a tangent I reluctantly address as I'm sure it will used as a diversion for the real question at hand, but whether or not we are talking shop is irelevant. Not every one who walks in the door of this clubhouse is at the same level of craftsmanship. Take Gellar for example. I know many VERY smart magicians who have seen him work and exclaimed, "I honestly have no idea how he does what he does." Now, even though we are "all in the same shop" does that mean Gellar needs to tip his hand? What about Brown? There are may who attribute his skills skills to others professed. Should he be required to "tip the mitt" just because someone here owns color monte?) I never said anyone should have to give up their tricks. Quote:
On 2005-05-09 18:13, jimtron wrote: Here’s the “truth” or “reality” in a nutshell. Psychics are all fakes, just like magicians. However, unlike most magicians they try to pretend they aren’t fakes, and some go so far and to actually believe they aren’t fakes, as many of the psychological principles work on the teller as well as the tellee. However they are fakes just the same. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Osiris said:
"From my point of view and from teh many, many "Psychics" I've investigated and tested over the years, I know for a fact that most are little other than delusional individuals with a good heart that barely make ends meet doing whatever it is they do; Readings, Aura Balancing, Reiki, etc. Like Prostitution, it's a victimless scenario." I agree that most psychics are likely well-intentioned, even if they aren't really psychic. I'm very interested in hearing more about your investigations and tests. May I ask how you distinguish between the real and delusional psychics? That's one of the things I'm trying to get at--what are the real psychics doing that the others are not doing. |
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 22:31, badchad wrote: Spoken like a true CYNIC! No, I'm not going to go tit for tat with you child. Your responses to my post and Truthteller say a heck of a lot about your lack of knowledge on this topic as well as your lack of experience. You have less than a dozen posts in this forum, most all of them condemning people that actually work in a field you're TRYING to pose as an "expert" in. Interestingly, as you played two-bit lawyer in responding to my post, you failed to understand things said including the fact that I do not claim to have Psychic Powers... in fact, I stated that I don't belive in "Psychic Powers" only that I have had unexplainable experiences that seem to be akin to such things. Similarly, you ignored what I said as to why I call myself a "Psychic" in the work I do... like many others that specialize in the fields of Psychic & Bizarre Entertainment. You say that you like "Mentalism" and yet, you would admittedly take a dump on all that came before you, who used the art of being a Reader via the mail, over the air-waves of radio and early tv and yes, even on line. Men that you probably herald for the contributions they gave to magic and yet, you know NOTHING about them and how they conducted business... including the act of Reading palms in Tea Rooms or via Mail Order. What's your opinion of Richard Webster? Or Jeff McBride for that matter? They're believers! They both have done Readings for pay and Richard is a renown author of numerous books catering to the shut-eye market. Does that negate his authority and resume' within magic? Does that make him a crook? I'm curious, you being an expert and all... how many books, manuscripts or just plane articles have you composed and had published on this subject? How many lectures have you given on what the whole New Age and Psychic thing is about or the "truth" behind magick? What degrees do you have that qualify you to be such an expert? Not to brag but I do have two columns in two noted eZines that have a rather heavy following... I do have a Doctorates Degree in Religious Science as well as other degrees in counseling, theater and even one in business. I have over a dozen manuscripts to my credit within the magic world as well as numerous articles, lectures, etc. in fields totally not related to this craft. Heck, I'm even recognized as a major mind, so to speak, when it comes to illusion conception and design (my good buddy Franz calls me a "God"... Harry Blackstone just called me a smart A** kid that knew too much...) So who are you? Where does your authority come from? When shows weren't forthcoming, I supported myself and the lives of those that depended upon me by doing Readings and giving lectures on metaphysics. When I could no longer perform as an illusionist and found myself in a wheelchair, it wasn't magic that came to my aid, but mentalism and my skills as a Reader and communicator. Amazingly, even when times were at their most bleak, it's been the people who I gave back to, as a Reader/counselor that gave me the drive... the healing energy I needed, just to hang on another day. I've seen literal miracles take shape in the lives of those that have been my clients. I don't take credit for being a Healer or some kind of gifted guru. Nor do I accept your charge that I'm some kind of charlatan or con. You've never met me nor have you witnessed how I operate or how what I do, affects others. I'd lay money on it that you haven't a clue as to how most other Readers actually work, the lives they've helped transform and so forth, either. If Readers are so crooked and dishonest, why are most of them living from day to day and barely getting by? Where's the tens of thousands of dollars we supposedly steal from all these ignorant, gullible suckers you seem to believe we prey upon? As to your opinion, what you have to say... it's nothing to me! I only retort so that those new to mentalism and magic might be able to digest an alternative perspective and realize that they do not have to buy into this very hate filled, mode of bigotry that's so rife in magic and so not needed. Just because you're a magician does not mean you have to disbelieve everything, nor does it mean you have the answer to it all. So many misconceptions... so much misinformation... it blinds us all. Especially when we are focused upon the extreme rather than finding balance. It's at the mid point of any issue that genuine truth can be found. That's where I prefer to stand when possible. I hope you will some day understand how that is in fact, the epitome of wisdom. |
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badchad New user 6 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 23:02, Osiris wrote: And spoken truly. What’s so bad about a cynic anyway? Quote:
No, I'm not going to go tit for tat with you child. You still believe in real magic and you call me a child. That’s pretty funny. Quote:
Your responses to my post and Truthteller say a heck of a lot about your lack of knowledge on this topic as well as your lack of experience. Your saying you actually believe in this gibberish says a lot about your lack of knowledge and experience. And yes I can play this game all day. Quote:
You have less than a dozen posts in this forum, most all of them condemning people that actually work in a field you're TRYING to pose as an "expert" in. Post count is indicative of knowledge? Excuse me, but a class in logic might be in order. Quote:
Interestingly, as you played two-bit lawyer in responding to my post, you failed to understand things said including the fact that I do not claim to have Psychic Powers... in fact, I stated that I don't belive in "Psychic Powers" only that I have had unexplainable experiences that seem to be akin to such things. Well good, so here we are a couple of guys who don’t believe in psychic powers (you got that jimtron?) it just didn’t seem all that clear before. Hey since we both don’t believe in psychic powers, what’s got your dander up? While were on the subject, wasn’t it nice of me to explain your unexplainable experiences? Quote:
You say that you like "Mentalism" and yet, you would admittedly take a dump on all that came before you, who used the art of being a Reader via the mail, over the air-waves of radio and early tv and yes, even on line. Men that you probably herald for the contributions they gave to magic and yet, you know NOTHING about them and how they conducted business... including the act of Reading palms in Tea Rooms or via Mail Order. I still think you should go back and read what I wrote. I personally don’t care that much if a person defrauds other people. I’m of the impression that people foolish enough to believe that stuff deserve what they get. You know, Darwinism and all that. However seeing mentalists on a mentalist board debating back and forth about how what they do is real, is pretty funny. Seems you should be agreeing with me since you said your not psychic and don’t believe in that stuff. Or do you, as I am getting the psychic vibrations that your emotions betray your words:-). Quote:
Not to brag but I do have two columns in two noted eZines that have a rather heavy following... I do have a Doctorates Degree in Religious Science as well as other degrees in counseling, theater and even one in business. Why are you bothering to bolster your authority on the subject when you have already agreed with me that you do not believe in psychic powers? That seems weird. Also being as learned as you are, you should know that appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. You do know that don’t you? Quote:
I've seen literal miracles take shape in the lives of those that have been my clients. I don't take credit for being a Healer or some kind of gifted guru. That’s good cause a healer in a wheelchair seems a little less than credible. Also by “literal miracles” do you mean you actually saw laws of physics being broken? Do explain. Quote:
Nor do I accept your charge that I'm some kind of charlatan or con. Since you say you do not claim to be psychic, under what pretenses do you give your readings? Quote:
If Readers are so crooked and dishonest, why are most of them living from day to day and barely getting by? Cause they aren’t smart. Self deception can get in the way of a good income. From what I hear most grifters aren’t rich either, so I don’t know why you think dishonesty need be associated with riches. Quote:
Where's the tens of thousands of dollars we supposedly steal from all these ignorant, gullible suckers you seem to believe we prey upon? Couldn’t tell you. Where’s your money go? Quote:
Just because you're a magician does not mean you have to disbelieve everything, nor does it mean you have the answer to it all. But you just said you don’t believe in psychic powers either? Why do you get angry that I don’t believe in them? Are you suffering from some multi-personality disorder? Quote:
So many misconceptions... so much misinformation... it blinds us all. Speak for yourself. |
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Piers Inner circle A Limited Edition of 1394 Posts |
As a 'new' person, I think I'll just keep an open mind on this one.....
www.justgiving.com/piers-cancer-fund www.justgiving.com/Piers-Cancer-Fund-2 www.justgiving.com/Piers-Cancer-Fund-3 Finished my 4 months of Chemotherapy in 2009. 3 monthly checks since... and into 2021! As seen on the QE2 and QM2. Author of Salem's Cornucopia - SUC Book |
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badchad New user 6 Posts |
Just not so open a mind that your brains fall out.
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts |
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MrCyNic Loyal user England 238 Posts |
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On 2005-05-10 02:15, johnjnesbit wrote: Heh - very amusing. For the record, science and scepticism are all about altering our world-view as new evidence and discoveries appear. Discarding evidence without proper consideration is as alien to true sceptical thinking as blind acceptance without evidence. Still quite a funny article, though. Quick note to Philemon, in case it interests you: the concept of a strict functional split between the left and right sides of the brain is largely inaccurate. Both hemispheres, for example, are perfectly capable of handling linguistic stimuli. Functional aptitudes between the hemispheres typically register as reaction time discrepancies of 100ms or less. For example, as tempting as it may be to hope that we can tell which specific area of a spectator's brain they may accessing by watching their eye movement patterns, the science just isn't there. Interestingly, though, there is one apparently absolute functional split: the right hemisphere cannot operate the apparatus of the vocal tract, and so appears to be physically mute. I'm certain there's the germ of a good mentalism effect in that. As for the whole "fake psychic" thing, I approach magic and mentalism as I do my writing. I am attempting to create an engaging work of fiction. Unlike actual belief, suspension of disbelief is a voluntary act that can only be achieved when the audience is aware of the fictional nature of the performance. For me, this means that the audience is willingly complicit in their own deception. If I were a believer in paranormal phenomena, I'd be working hard to promote the legitimate research going on in the field. I certainly wouldn't be actively harming the credibility of that research by falsifying evidence through fraudulant "psychic" performances. As I've said a few times before, my personal opinion is that the misrepresentation of fiction as fact is as unacceptable in mentalism as it is on the 6pm news. To me, it's a debasement of a very beautiful performance artform. To others, it's an acceptable (or even vital) part of their performance characters. To-may-to / to-mah-to. Cheers, Cy. |
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Osiris Special user 610 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 22:33, jimtron wrote: If you were to attend a Psychic Fair (as an example) you will see a dozen or so individuals doing "Readings". In fact, I just recently did a fair here in New England, most of the "Readers" were from a Spiritualist Church and were "Channeling" as mediums... pardon, but of the four doing the work, NONE OF THEM honestly connected with any of the people that showed interest. That's aside the point... kind of... these folks have the deep belief that they really are blessed in some way. These are very much delusional types who have clung to something... a belief... out of personal need to be unique and feel of import. When I was working in Las Vegas I met well over 100 licensed "Psychics" that worked in the area. Of that 100 I met only two that showed anything remotely looking like genuine ability. One was so bad that his reputation in town was to have only three canned Readings he gave to everyone... I had to deal with his up-set clients frequently. In time I discovered that he was nothing more than the man behind the curtain (think of Oz) a "magician" who assumed the public was ignorant and gullible enough to buy into the canned crap we are told works. Of the two that "passed my tests" the differences up-front, were the lack of ego and an honest sense of humility as well as reluctance. I've made it a practice not to reveal the whole of my "testing" technique in that any public mention would potentially make information available and easy to discover. But, when a Reader can give me specifics on key situations that I intentionally conceal behind a facade, that's one of the key tattle tales! It is a cue for me to look at that person a bit deeper. As a performer I have tons of information in circulation on my and my life... easy access stuff. When a Reader simply feeds me that information back, then I just move on. However, there is another side to who and what Craig Browning is. If and when a Reader reveals those unpublished facets, that's reason to raise my eyebrow. That's reason to look a bit deeper, using the psychological tools and known methodology allied with the skeptic, to see if I'm being drawn into a situation of happenstance or if the individual is genuine. Make one or two hits on me and I'll chalk that up to luck, make a dozen or more hits on me over a brief period of time and several sittings and you've got me seriously investigating you to see what makes you tick. In the case of these two ladies in Las Vegas, both passed with flying colors on numerous "tests" for over a year's time. There was never reason for me to doubt their ability or see them as frauds. Such individuals are exceptionally rare, especially within the industry and active. The majority of those that I've met and gotten to know who really do have "talent" stay out of the limelight. Many are actually "ashamed" or "fearful" of what they can see or know about others. Too, they are all too aware of the bigotry that exists in the mundane world via the auspices of certain zealot sects when it comes to such abilities e.g. they seek to avoid that kind of confrontation and similarly, any encounter with cynics in which they are made to feel guilty for their ability and put on the spot, having to "defend" themselves and what they are capable of doing. Though much denial exist for reasons of "national security" the U.S. Government really does test and employ a considerable number of both, natural and trainned "Psychics". Same can be said about the U.N. and most other world agencies. I've had the good fortune of working with a couple of these individuals and I can assure you, they would never waste their time playing the "prove it to me" games of the Randi Foundation or CSI Cops. For starters, their contracts forbid them to do so and secondly, it is not of their nature to seek that kind of public attention. When I suggest that someone learn how to do Readings and get involved with the psychic community there are many reasons for this. The biggest comes from my own experiences in trying to understand my own sense of novelty and some of the more peculiar things that have happened to me. I can assure you, our young arrogant cynic friend is way off base with his assumptive explanation as to why I recall things as I do and what actually happened. He isn't even close! If the explanations were that simple, I wouldn't have invested three quarters of my life searching, researching and experimenting in the hopes of understanding why and how things are as they are in my own life and that of others. If a number were to be placed on things, I'd say less than 3% of those who outwardly claim to be "Psychic" really have a genuine "gift". The majority of those that do aren't out to make a name for themselves, to get rich, etc. It's really that simple. It's also what makes it "safe" for Randi to offer that Million Dollars... he knows from his own experiences (though he may never speak of it "officially") that the odds are in his favor... those with genuine ability simply will not apply while those with an axe to grind and ego's to polish, will. As before, I wish I could answer your question more directly Jimtron. I just hope what I've said here helps with your understanding. At least you seem to be trying to be open minded. As I've said in the past, the believers are the ones who need to approach it all with a skeptic's heart... especially those of us looking for a reason to believe -- for validation of faith, as it were. Enjoy your journey, it's amazing! |
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enriqueenriquez Inner circle New York 1287 Posts |
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On 2005-05-09 20:09, jimtron wrote: I believe is great to discuss it (in fact I’m enjoying very much a good part of this thread) but IMHO, we have to discuss it from the same perspective we discuss creativity, art, humor, or love. The obsession for pin pointing everything, should also be discussed. Ah, and AGAIN. Thinking that all readers market themselves as possessor of psychic powers, denotes a deep level of ignorance about the subject. I don’t know what chemical they put in those red sponge balls... but many people start feeling they can define the “truth” about anything, just by touching them. |
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