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revlovejoy Special user Pennsylvania 765 Posts |
Having never worked on a real C&B routine outside my childhood magic set, I have a question concerning the cups I see advertised in magic publications and on reputable websites.
Why are three plain cups with no gaffs so expensive? I don't want to open a whole broad topic that's been done over and over here on the Café. A set of cups doesn't come with a secret really. Not anymore. No one owns rights to the idea of cups and balls. The props themselves don't "do" anything, in the way that an expensive prop might have hidden workings. So is it a collector's thing? The look of well-crafted cups? Or is there an aspect to these sets of cups that includes some physical or material aspect that actually DOES aid in the execution of sleights? Not looking for secret revelations, just a yea or nay. If it's simply a case of being the great classic of magic, and having a fine set is something one wants, I can get that. People pay top dollar for watches, when a cereal box digital tells time just as well. People pay for fine china, on which food tastes the same as off of my Pfaltzgraf everyday. But there's something desirable for some people about the "finer" aspects which go beyond utilitarian issues. Did I just answer my own question? |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
There are a number of reasons, Rev:
- Materials, workmanship/craftsmanship, time spent. There is a top-flight CB guy named Gazzo who sells a leather pouch for $400-$700, depending on some options. When I first saw that, I was stunned. I then noted positive comments from respected folks here. But as I understand, he makes them himself - each one - by hand. Uses top leather, too. So you have something made personally by a unique craftsman - what is his time worth, you know? But something inside me *still* revolts at high prices for a leather pouch, as with some of the higher priced CBs (I own a set of Sherwoods). - Aesthetics (did I spell that right?) - again, beauty and uniqueness add to price. - Practicality - If you do magic for a living, quality can not only make your performance go better, it can make it look more professional, get you more bookings, more money... See where this is going?
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
Relovejoy: You are right. The cups are way overpriced. Imho. It is a rip off, but over the years, the maker have won any kind of debate with the standard arguments. You know: Handmade, Years of Research, Limited number...
And the funny thing. Even experienced magicians seem to believe that B*******. mmG Roland |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Roland, what cups are you using?
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
The brass cups from "Bazar de Magia", the cheapest one I could find that are not being made from aluminum.
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Burrich Loyal user 214 Posts |
Same cups as I am using but still I hope to get smooth sherwoods next.
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
OK, thanx..
PS. I agree re the *overpriced*, but OTOH I have to admit it takes some time to do the correct shape aso, CNC programming in some versions, and they might not sell a lot, also due to the price.. Prototypes have to be made, aso... The marked isn't that big I suppose.. Oh, and I do have original Paul Fox cups but I bought them 30 years back, they where expensive then, but not that much then nowadays..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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revlovejoy Special user Pennsylvania 765 Posts |
So "correct shape" is an element of the usual physical doing of the routine itself?
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Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
There are many technical aspects to a set of cups and balls that allow for smooth, professional functioning in a routine. You can get a sense of these techincal features by either searching this forum or by checking out Bill Palmer's site. But even with these technical features in mind, you do not have to spend a fortune on a decent set of cups. Good quality cups are made by manufactuerers such as Morissey and Bazar de Magia at a reasonable price. From there, once you have developed your routine, it is more a matter of personal preference as to which cups you like best.
Of course, there are also collectors like Bill Palmer who have a wealth of knowledge about cups that I could only dream of, and a collection to match! Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Quote: Well, it depends on a lot of things, amongst them the 'illusion' the opening of the cups is almost smaller then the final load.
On 2005-05-02 11:18, revlovejoy wrote: Apart from this, there has to be a 'balance' in them so they have a good stand on the table, they should be able to hold 3 reasonable sized balls on top of one, whilst another cup is covering the first cup, this also means the top has to have the 'right' downwards bevel mand the top has to be large enough, aso. aso. Some of the cups out their DON'T fullfill these demands!!! BUT, of course, some of the cheaper cups too might have the correct dimensions. Weight is important too, therefor aluminium isn't a good choice, weight because imagine the handling problems having to throw a *feather* from hand to hand, and do teh same with a ballbearing..you get the idea.. Still, no dobt, cheaper cups are OK too and do fullfill all this, one should have the possibility to try them out first and compare.. Material shouldn't be too thin either, when you bang the wand inside or outside, aso. aso. a lot of IDEAL things a cuphandler demands from his cups..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If you want to understand why a set of cups is so expensive, you need to understand how they are made. With the exception of cheap, plastic cups, which are molded, there are two basic processes used to make cups. These are spinning and CNC machining.
Spinning a copper cup requires a minimum of six separate operations. These are done by hand, with a certain amount of assistance from machines. Each time a certain amount of work is put into the cup, it must be removed from the spinning lathe and annealed, otherwise the finished product will crack, and the work will have gone to waste. After the cup is completed, it must be polished. Each cup in a set of plain, unfinished copper cups represents a minimnum of two hours of hand labor. This does not count materials. Nor does it take into account the cost of the forms or "chucks" as they are termed in the business. Brass is even more difficult to work, because it becomes even more brittle, and requires more annealing. Aluminum is cheaper, not only because of the cost of materials, but it doesn't require as much annealing. Stainless steel, which is an excellent material is much more difficult to spin. Only a couple of spinners in the US will even try it. The other process, CNC machining, takes less time at the beginning, but it is a very wasteful process. The cup is carved by a computer, from a solid block of metal. While the hand work is less at the outset, and there are no forms to purchase or construct, the computer program must be worked out, and there is a LOT of waste. So the initial cost of the cup will be much higher. After the cup is machined, it must be polished. This takes as long as polishing a spun cup. So a great deal of expense is involved in this type of work as well. This work can only be done by hand, because the numbers of cups made are quite small. As an example, RnT 2 will do a run of 75 cups. That's 25 sets. Setup for this is a major part of the expense. The reason that the cups from MM are so cheap is that they are using Chinese labor. The reason Bazar de Magia cups are so cheap is that they have a large supply of metal at very low prices in Argentina, and their labor is much cheaper than it is here, in England or in Germany. I can guarantee you that once you purchase a really good set of cups, you will feel the difference, and you won't want to go back to any of the substitutes. If you think these handmade cups are overpriced, then I suggest that you try it yourself. If you want to see the stages of making a cup, go to http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.com/makingdu.htm Or you can visit http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/MiniCup/Progress.html
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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AndyComic Loyal user 211 Posts |
Cant cups be cast in aluminum and then plated in copper?
** I know absolutley nothing about chemistry , so if this is a stupid question , I apologise |
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revlovejoy Special user Pennsylvania 765 Posts |
I thank you all for the detailed responses, especially Mr. Palmer. I now have a sense of the work involved in cup production. Bill, I know you and I share a love of acoustic music, and I am usually the one explaining to people outside music, why they see guitars at the mall for $75, and I want one that costs $3k. So I understand craftsmanship. I just didn't know what makes the jump in price worth it in cups, whereas I do know where that difference is, in a mandolin.
I hope I didn't step on any toes here. And I wouldn't consider buying a thing from MM, for the record. I'm wondering if anyone turns wood cups on a lathe? Another wasteful process, to be sure, and not less expensive I would bet, but the product could be beautiful. |
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
I know Porper makes some wooden cups, I don't know the process or anything, bet no doubt-- they a very nice looking. The problem is that his cups are not that great, and very expensive in my opinion. And wood does not hold up like a metal cup-- obviously.
Brett Sherwood discusses your question in the Q&A section of his site. His cups are great. Many of the higher priced cups, such as those made by Gazzo, Gary Animal, Brett Sherwood, Auke Van Dukom (sp), Pete Biro's cups, these will all last you a life time if you properly care for them. Let's say that the cups are $400, that is a lot of money for a set of cups, right? Well you can have them for the rest of your life! I think it is worth it, and obviously many others do to, otherwise they would never have gotten the cups. The cup design aids greatly, the weight, balance, all that contributes.
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
I have a set of turned Teakwood cups. They look great, but I wouldn't dare use them on the streets. No wands either. The cups would crack too easily. I also have a pocket set of turned Asian cups that look very nice, but the same caution applies.
I have a picture of the Teak ones on the "Photos" section of my website.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
Whether a copper Sherwood cup is worth eight times more than a copper Bazar de Magia is a personal decision. No one will think the less of you if you use Bazar cups--they are nice. Economically, if people refuse to buy Sherwoods at the price they want, Mr. Sherwood has an option. He can either charge less or decide that the lower economic price is not worth the extra effort he puts into the cups. I a guessing that he puts many more hours into the production of his products.
You could do the same thing with any product. Hire people to handmake all of your furniture and see how much better it could be and how much more expensive as well. Whether you do this is up to you. I use a pouch that is really a heavy canvas camera bag with a black vinyl covering. Modified, it works pretty well. My loads fit nice, it wears nice, and looks a little like a Gazzo Pouch (if you squint your eyes and stand twenty yards away.) It works for me. I will get a Gazzo pouch when I can, but whether this is vanity or because his pouches are really worth twenty to forty times what my pouch cost is a different matter. But whether it is too much for me, does not mean Gazzo needs to lower his price. My price is too low for him. Economics.
Chris
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The cost of a Sherwood copper cup is about the same as the cost of a Gazzo copper cup, so there shouldn't be any problem there. There is, in a way, an ethical situation with Bazar. Their cups are basically a copy of an early Morrissey design. Morrissey can't compete with them using that older design, so they have chosen to go with one that is cheaper to produce.
Since you don't hear Morrissey griping about it, I don't know whether it is really a consideration. OTOH, I know the level of quality I get from various suppliers. The purposes of the Sherwoods is entirely different from the purposes of the Gazzo cups. The Sherwoods are an elegant cup. The Gazzo's are street cups. Regarding casting in aluminum and then plating -- what would be the purpose? Casting isn't cheap. Once you cast the material, then you have to finish it. That means grinding off the flash from the mold, sanding and polishing it, and then figuring out how to plate it. Most of the time, aluminum is anodized rather than plated. Different process, different results.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
Revlovejoy,
You hit the nail on the head with the music analogy. Especially the violin bow. Take a look at it. Basically a 28" piece of wood with some horsehair. Cheap fiberglass will run you $30, a decent Chinese bow about 3-500. A current name maker 5,000-8,000. An old masters way over 10,000. Almost like the cup market. Tom |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-02 14:43, revlovejoy wrote: You mean that $200 machine-carved Johnson mandolin isn't as good as one of those used Lloyd Loar F-5's? Those Johnson instruments look and sound like a fine piece of furniture! Seriously, acoustical instruments is one field where there are some really great instruments being made, and some reak junk being foisted off on the public. And if they don't know the difference, they end up buying the junk. One of the chief perpetrators of junk instruments has a name that begins with MM...Kind of spooky isn't it! Quote:
It can be done, but requires immense skill, especially because of the way that wood reacts when it is turned. If the grain isn't situated just right, and the wood isn't seasoned exactly the right way, the cup will warp after it is turned. It's not a matter of being completely dry. It's a matter of balanced humidity. Porper uses a block of very dark wood that is actually a two part piece. As long as you don't bang them on the table, they should hold up well.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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swatchel-omi Regular user 116 Posts |
Hey Bill,
You left out a couple of steps to the cup making process on your website. First the sheets of copper are cut into squares, then the squares are cut into circles. Not big steps, but they still need to be done. Joe I love the way we talk about the cups like they are fine instruments. We talk about the shape, the size, the balance, the materials, the finish, the engraving and so on. And for the most part, I agree. I enjoy having a decent set of cups to work with. But then I watch a tape of Patric Page killing people with 3 coffee mugs and some pound notes, and I remind myself it's the artist, not the instrument. Joe |
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