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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
I apologize for my last post; let me clarify.
Most mental magicians are magicians doing mental magic and are not in fact 'mental'. If there indeed are mental magicians out there, I believe they would rather be refered to as 'magicians with a mental disability', and not 'mental magicians'. Of the magicians that do perform mental magic I would have to say that their use of props literally forces them to train both their mind and body - some modern props weigh much more than even the primative billets from Roman times. I would say on a balance of probabilities, that most magicians doing mental magic would win in a fist fight with their mentalist opponents. I've also heard it from a lady friend that mentalists run into problems with the ladies. As she put it " if he can read my mind why is he spending all of his time THERE when I want to be touched HERE!" She could only assume that he was all knowing but selfish. A. Persons doing mental magic as lovers? One word: props A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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Alexander Marsh Inner circle England 1191 Posts |
LOL!!!
Tears are actually rolling down my cheek! By the way, great post truthteller.
My stuff: AlexanderMarshMentalism.co.uk
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RickSilmser Special user 869 Posts |
Well...from the responce, I have hit a nerve...good, at least I have you guys thinking about it. By the way...the Romans did have paper... I believe I said it was a form of billet reading. You guys are just a little upset with me...good, I like that, as I said...I have you out of your seats.
Most of you don't like my stuff, but I'm like a traffic accident...you just have to take one little peek. If you truly put your feelings aside, you'll know I'm right when I explain the difference between a Mentalist and a Mental magician. ~Rick~ Derek...you da man !!! That is a stroke of genius ! ~Rick~ |
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Sven Rygh Inner circle Oslo, Norway. 1945 Posts |
I now and then wonder why posts like the initial pop up from time to time.
Is it to prove that Magicians helps Magicians? -or is it to fill this forum with stuff of more or less value just so that the posters can show that they know the terms and theory on magic and mentalism? -or may be an option for some of us to try to polish our egos? Topics and discussions like this are old as the rocks, and I wonder how many of the members here find them really interesting. Mentalism? Mental Magic? How valueable are the discussions, and what comes out of them? Not very much in my opinion. Honestly, how important are these questions? If you ask me, not very, - at least not to our audiences They are only there to be entertained and have a great time. ....or maybe this is my thoughts and opinions only, and that I am in the wrong forum? Sven
WWW.SVENRYGH.NO
"Keep it as simple as possible, - but no simpler" http://www.svenrygh.no/sven-rygh/presse/nrk-forst-og-sist/ http://www.svenrygh.no/video.html |
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Phil Thomas Inner circle Newark, Ohio 1117 Posts |
All that matters is that the audience is entertained. If you have entertained your audience well whether it be through magic or mentalism, then you have done your job and you have done it well. I am quite new to the area of mentalism and now that I think about it something does not make sense. Why is it debated that magic, mentalism and "mental magic" are all different things? Mentalism still falls under the "magic" category only it is a different genre. It's like different types of music. Country, rock, pop, soul, classical etc. It's all music, but different styles. Same thing here if you really think about it. Mentalism, magic, "mental magic". They are one in the same. Just because a "mentalist" does not use fancy "props", they are still using a form of trickery to convince the audience that they are infact reading minds.
It all falls into the same boat here if you really think about it. And whoever says that mentalists don't use "props", well what do you call "billets", "ESP cards", "writing utensils" etc etc. Whatever you are using to aid you in your effect could be considered a prop whether it was bought from a magic store or borrowed from your audience like a dollar bill for a serial number prediction or whatever the case may be. If any of you have Banachek's PSI series dvds, all the things that he uses can be considered props. Gimmicked or not, we all are guilty of using them no matter how innocent or cleverly gimmicked they are. Even Banachek himself uses gimmicked props in a couple of his effects on this dvd series. So to say that "mental magic" and "mentalism" are two different things, if you really think about it they are the same thing. And just because someone who is known for mentalism whether it be Max Maven, Steve Banachek, Richard Osterlind,Uri Geller, Kreskin or Randi, just because they don't include what we know as "magic" in their acts does not mean that they are not magicians. They are infact magicians who play the part of a mentalist in turn they are doing "mental magic". It is all still a form of trickery, just like there are different forms of music, so the same could go here. I do agree that there are some things that magicians don't do that mentalists do. Cold reading, muscle reading etc. These things do take time to learn and when they are learned one can give off the illusion that they are infact a true mentalist........even though they are still a magician, because like I said, they are giving the ILLUSION that they are indeed able to tap into the minds of the audience by some sixth sense or a spirit guide. Sorry to ramble, I just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. That's just my 2 cents. Spend it how you wish. :cheers: Phil
"If we lose the sense of the mysterious, life is no more than a snuffed out candle."
Albert Einstein |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Understanding these differences can have value for the performer. It helps clarify one's vision and ensures the image he or she is offering is both intentional and consistent.
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-12 22:56, Alewishus wrote: They wrote on paper thin sheets of lead using a sharp piece of iron called a stylus. Small pieces of lead, with questions inscribed on them, have been found at the temple of Apollo, in Delphi, Greece, the site of ancient mediums and psychics. These may have been used for a Q&A routine!
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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Alexander Marsh Inner circle England 1191 Posts |
The reason these topics are old hat, I think, is because it just boils down to the performers own personal choice.
Mentalsim Vs. Mental Magic, Using Cards Vs. NOT using Cards, Psychich Vs. Psychological, Readings Vs. every thing else. Its up to you, you own taste. Its jsut those odd and personal tastes you have. For example, I use Playing Cards. I preffer Blue backed rather than Red, it just looks nicer to me. I preffer it when I have methods, when it comes to Playing Cards, that are not gimmicked but I will use a gimmicked deck as it can make things much simpler and I don't have anything to prove. Its up to you.
My stuff: AlexanderMarshMentalism.co.uk
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RickSilmser Special user 869 Posts |
Thank you very much, 7th. sun...I wasn't sure where to look that up.
It's a natural human reaction to act the way some of these gentleman are doing to what I'm saying...it's what people do when they are faced with the truth and don't know how to respond...simply because they know deep inside that the other person is right...so they mock him. The same goes for the reaction of anger. All I did was distinguish the difference between the two (Mentalist & Mental Magician), some people here seem to think the two are the same...not so. I can get tracing paper and trace a work of art, that does not make me an artist, it only shows that I'm too lazy to learn how to draw. If I take a canvas with brush and paint and create a beautiful scene, "that" makes me an artist. Mental Magicians trace...Mentalists create. ~Rick~ PS-old hat or not, it still needed to be talked about... there is too much misconception about the topic so I took it upon myself to distinguish the two. |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-13 04:35, RickSilmser wrote: You're a very funny man, Rick. Whenever people suggest that your definition may not be the only one, you respond by telling them that they're just angry because of how right you are. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I silently snigger into my sleeve. As for all this defining - I don't really see that it achieves much. Show people what you feel they need to be shown. And let others do the same.
Hello.
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Jay Elf Elite user 466 Posts |
Hello Rick,
Rick said, "Mentalism is the fine art of stage mindreading. A Mentalist is just an actor who portrays a mindreader. Mentalist stands before their audience with next to nothing and what ever they do have is either in a brief case or in their pockets." Genuine mindreader never exists in this world. Therefore portrayal of mindreader differs for each individual. So your above definition of mentalist/mindreader is just one of many definitions. Bob Cassidy has an article "The Difference between Mentalism and Mental Magic"(P.159) in his good book "The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy". It also is just his definition among many others. Incidentally he is a good billet worker as in the book. Rick said "I consider billets to be a pure form of Mentalism." I am afraid I don't think so. It seems to me that is not a mindreading act but a billet reading act. If you are a pro, it is audience who judge "pure or tarnished" and "good or bad". If you are an amateur or a hobbyist, do what you believe or be what you believe. Sincerely, Jay |
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MagoStevo Elite user 478 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-13 08:25, Jay Elf wrote: very well said!
Never ever have bad thought,you never know who is listening....
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
I do hope that our craft (or art), is depended on how many things we have on us. Is a performer using a very sophisticated electronic devices a mentalist or mental magician. He may have a truck load of these. If a performer has an easle (isn't that the name of the writing pad thing?) is he then a mental magician? If he uses paper is he a magician then?
I truly hope this is not the case. I believe, and what was already pointed out, tha tthe definition lies on the stage persona. In what contex do one perform his effects and what he claims them to be. You cannot achieve the same reaction from a mind reading effect if you have just performed a abitious card routine instead of a pk routine. Isn't that self evident? We have effects that look like magic, not depending on the props but the construction of an effect. In fact, I believe many Max Maven's effects look like mental magic rather than mentalism. And he may just use three chairs, I wouldnh't call them props in a magical sense. But, the propless idea is not a bad one. Why? Because it may force us to think more into what a genuine mind reading would really look like. And let me tell you, there would not be any billets around. There could be chairs though. But if that looks like a magic trick... |
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RickSilmser Special user 869 Posts |
Hi Stephen...
It's not the fact that they disagreed with me...it was the mocking of the things I was saying. Disagree with me, sure...but there is no need to mock someone, it's childish. Hi Jay... How long you been in the business for ? Not long I bet. I would have liked to have seen Dunninger's reaction to what you just said about billets. Any performer knows it's not real mindreading...it's "based" on what it would be like "if" you could read minds and it's put across to the audience as such. What we are talking about here is not up to the audience to judge at all, it's between the performers...I don't think you understand whats going on here. Please re read my original posting. Hi Pekka... The bottom line is a Mental Magician is not a Mentalist no matter how you may conceive it to be...read what I said about the artist, please. I have you all thinking about this...good, I'm happy now. ~Rick~ |
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MrCyNic Loyal user England 238 Posts |
A provocative, even emotional topic for some.
To me, it's just more lines drawn endlessly in the sand: without value, authority or substance. To each his own. Cheers, Cy. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
The problem isn't defining the difference between mentalism and mental magic, the problem is in saying one is "better" than the other.
If the audience believes that the phenomona is produced by trickery, you are a mental magician. If they believe that it is the product of a "real ability" it falls into the domain of mentalism (though if you look at my essay from earlier, you see I believe it breaks down in this later case more specifically). PROPS have nothing to do with it. How those props are perceived, does. For example, Rick, I know of one very succesful spiritualist church whose "pastor" used a mental epic board. While personally I think this is a bad choice, the presence of a "prop" did not change the powerful impact of the perceived reality of his message. Did that make him a mental magicians? Brad Henderson |
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RickSilmser Special user 869 Posts |
Hi Brad...
I'm not saying one is "better" just a lot more skilled, if that makes him better, well alright. I just want to set it stright that just because one picks up a book by this guy and a book by that guy and buys so and so's new toy, it does not make them a mentalist. Many here think it does. That is why I hate the name Mentalist. It's a term used too loosely by too many people at the drop of a hat. 3/4 of these people are 9 to 5 guys, a hobbyist, Mental Magicians who think this way. I've seen it so many times. If I buy a ball and vase trick, am I a Magician ? No. If I practice my slight of hand, vanishes, productions, etc. am I a Magician ? I'm well on my way to being one, that's for sure. Well, it looks like we all have to agree to disagree. ~Rick~ |
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Jay Elf Elite user 466 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-13 12:13, RickSilmser wrote: Hello Rick, Please re read your original posting. It has nothing to do with reaction. Your original posting is about confusing about Mentalist and Mental Magician. If we could read minds and it's put across to the audience as such, we would never use billets. We would never collect billets by ourselves, and steal into pocket(sadly a few spectators noticed pocket thing). Don't get me wrong. I like brain busters. As far as you like to discuss Mentalist(Mentalism) and Mental Magician(Mental Magic), you yourself first shold define the difference and the topic point utmost clearly, before saying to us "re read again" repeatedly. If you don't, someone may say "Rick said a mentalist doesn't use the props bigger than a briefcase, so does he become mental magician if he uses a LARGE billet switch box instead of sleight-of-hand means in Q&A act?" You said about the difference between "Mentalist" and "Mental Magician", amd a Mentalist is just an actor who portrays a mindreader in your original post. This is my opinion to your original post. Genuine mindreader never exists in this world. No actual model/figure. So there is never one single and absolute answer about the difference between Mentalist and Mental Magician. It depends on each individual's thought. Jay |
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RickSilmser Special user 869 Posts |
Hi Jay...
I understand it has nothing to do with reaction, but neither did that idiotic comment about billets not being related to mindreading. Real mindreading, is there such a thing? Who knows. Stage mindreading, is there such a thing ? Absolutely yes and billets is at the root of it. that's why I asked the kid how long he's been in the business. ~Rick~ |
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J ack Galloway Inner circle 1309 Posts |
Jay Elf,
Yes mind reading does exist. I asume that you have not read some of the current science on the subject. I might also offer that a mentalist in many cases is just a magician unfortunatly. Jack H.O.A.X |
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