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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
I think it would be cheaper to by a cheap one. Considering how many times you try to make it.
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4242 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-10 17:41, Magicmaven wrote: Magicmaven, are you referring to Rik making chop cups? Great products are great products because somebody wants something better than cheap, for whatever reason - consistency, beauty, better functionality, etc.... Sometimes artists like Rik just want to create something, and they do, and others benefit. There is a great satisfaction, too, in learning to create something beautiful and/or funtional. I tried to learn to make Monkey Fist balls a couple of weeks ago. At first, I thought I wouldn't get it, especially from internet instruction manuals. I had purchased leather, balls, etc... I thought, maybe I should just buy a the cheapest set I can find. But I persisted. After only a few hours I was able to make my first set of balls. Now I can do them any way I want - any color, any size, my choice, and my quality. When you do your own, you call the shots. Rik now can do the same with his chop cup - though his efforts were MUCH greater than mine in this instance. Buy a cheap chop cup and what have you got? A cheap chop cup. Rik can now make a work of art that function great, and bless others with his art as well! That's about the best I can do. Now you'll probably say, "No, I wasn't talking about that at all!" ;^)
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
I was talking to Blazes. I think that for 25 dollars, one can buy a pretty good cup. If you plan on making more than one, than I can understand, and I take back what I said.
Good job with the balls Mark!
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Mark, you are absolutely right about the reasons that I make my cups. Here's some others that you missed though.
With my first five cups I paid for my leather. My leather is expensive, I only buy the best. So, I sold a few cups and now have enough leather to make a bunch of other stuff - including more leather. So it's a hobby that more than pays for itself (if I don't count labor). The main reason that I make the cups is that I love working with leather. Making cups just gives me an excuse. After all, every one of my family members, including cousins, have purses, billfolds, checkbook covers, boots, cell phone holders, holsters (we're from Texas), rifle cases, belts, and saddles. I needed something new. Another reason, and don't minimize this, is that there are working magicians that use my cup and routine. That gives me a huge thrill. I just love hearing that magicians love my cup and routine. When I'm making those cups, the whole time I'm thinking, "Just wait until XXX sees this!" My cups are all custom so I always know where they are going first. I also try to get to know the magician. If he has a web site I visit it and read everything I can. It just makes me feel better. I'm going to make a few more cups now, then some full size combo cups. I also bought the plans for a dice box, crystal casket, and a scarf box. I do wood carving as well. I'm about to make a set of thimbles to fit me perfectly. |
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flimnar Special user Salt Lake 577 Posts |
I can understand the impulse to create one's own chop cup, but I don't advise doing so when one doesn't know how to use it. Seems to me there would be value in getting some experience to inform one's choices about how to make such a thing. If "form follow function", might work best to understand the function first. For what it's worth....
Good Luck. Flimnar
"This one goes to eleven..." Nigel Tufnel
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
I agree flimnar, I used the chop cup for quite a while before I made my own. It was only after I had used it long enough that I knew what I wanted that I decided to make my own. I found plenty of cups that satisfied some of my desires, but never found one that satisfied all.
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Euangelion Special user 688 Posts |
Personal experience says that it is not that hard to make a chop cup but that like many things approaching the project with logic and scientific or engineering mindset is important.
First, recognize that the primary goal is the surreptious retention and release of an object from within a container of some sort. Next, you need to measure the appropriate force needed to release a ball. Then you need to controls the variables that affect that force: distance, mass of the object to be released, etc. Then establish the size of the ball to be used. Then design the cup around if it is possible. In an example of a leather cup finding matching leathers of different thicknesses allows even crude experimentation to achieve a proper balance, then designing the leather cup around it becomes a fairly managable project. Starting with the premise of what the cup must be like is much harder. I am blessed to have received a custom made leather chop cup/dice cup from Mike Rogers about a year before his death, Mike's signature securely protected under the clear plastic liner. I use it with the performing personna of the monk seen in the avatar at the left. After dice stacking opening I have designed a chop cup routine to be performed with parchment paper wads. About two days of experimenting with paper and iron filings solved the chop cup issue. I am now manufacturing solid felt balls for chops cups because they are, also, authentic to the character and era.
Bill Esborn
"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding." |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Euangelion, aren't you SWEET? You make it sound so simple. list out the variables, pull out the calculator and voila! a perfect chop cup every single time. Thank you so much for reducing my efforts to child's play.
Oh yeah, would you mind posting a picture of the chop cup that YOU made? |
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Euangelion Special user 688 Posts |
I have built several chop cups and never found the problem, particularly, hard to solve. No slight intended just my experience. The method I followed was exactly what I described. Since most of mine are made from leather (although I have made them from Dixie Cups and Styrofoam cups, also) which is indeed a natural and variable substance I have found this pretesting process very helpful.
If one is trying to manufacture a repeatable product standardizing is helpful but not essential for a single cup.
Bill Esborn
"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding." |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
You are right in the context that you meant. If I were making one cup it would be a simple thing. Essentially what you said, experimentation. However, even then, you are going to run into some ummm, faults.
For example, if you aren't careful then your gimmick will in fact be visible. Your gimmick may move and change the dynamics of the cup. It may even fall out as the leather ages (unless you are careful with your construction). My travails have all been in gaining consistent high quality with multiple cups. If it were just one then I wouldn't mind putting in however long it takes to get it just right. I think maybe I'm out of context and you were correct. I apologize for my defensiveness. |
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Euangelion Special user 688 Posts |
I assumed the goal was the making of a single cup because of the original post.
I agree with your list of potential problems I just tend to address them carefully as I move along. Yes, a gimmick can be visible if not managed carefully. The whole piece can fall loose as others have described even in manufactured pieces. Fortunately I have never run into these pratfalls, then again I am a man who wears a belt and suspenders. Nice to meet you, rik, I just found this board when a friend pointed me to it but used to participate on the Gemini board and Electronic Grymoire, as well as, the old Tuesday night AOL private chat. I am a parish pastor, with undergraduate degrees and minors in Psychology, Physics, and Philosophy.
Bill Esborn
"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding." |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Welcome to the board. Your quick and sincere apology betrayed you as a humble and honorable man. I'm sure you will be a fine voice here.
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mysticalmike Special user Saratoga Springs, NY 509 Posts |
I have a question. Where do you get those bigger cups and ball that I see street performers use. they are quite bigger than the normal ones.
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BSutter Special user Sitting on a pile of 582 Posts |
Jumbo Cups are available from a number of sources, a few are:
James Riser: http://www.jamesriser.com/ Gazzo: http://www.magicpitch.com/ Pete Biro may have some Gali Gali cups available PM him to ask. Also check the Cups and Balls Museum for other sources: http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.com/ Bill |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Jumbo cups seem to go through cycles. Auke van Dokkum has produced some really nice jumbo cups, and seems to keep a steady supply coming. He is doing the convention circuit in the US right now, so you probably will see him in Reno or Boston.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Paul Rathbun Inner circle Michigan 2543 Posts |
There is also the problem of getting the Ma**** to be just the right strength. To strong the ball won't dislodge, to weak and it falls when you don't expect it.
https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/9160
Sleightly Better Magic Reviews - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9rkXnNp8CxftN-rxU_WcbQ |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
That's exactly right. That's why I won't even attempt to make anything like this for sale. I would never know for sure if the ball matches the cup well enough to actually work.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Dave, there is no way to know. Individual performers do things differently. I don't even think about the disengage. Some people are very gentle in their movements and require only the slightest movement to disengage. A difficult disengage would be a real problem for them as they are used to the gentle tough. Others are like Don Allen though and the ball would be flying all over the room.
Instead I concentrate on the engage, how easily the ball engages. Since mine is a mini and my routine is entirely done in the hand, I find the engage to be a lot more important - and controllable - than the disengage. |
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
It's too bad there isn't a kit for making chop balls, so that the gaff strength could be adjusted. I may experiment with using a device that I use to maintain tape decks - it may make a difference. I'm also considering the possibility of shimming balls with straight pins.
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Richard Doyle Regular user Maryland 125 Posts |
Alan maybe you could use BB's for the gaff. That way you could add or subtract the BB's as needed. Just a thought.
Richard |
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