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Sam Tabar Inner circle Austin, Texas 1050 Posts |
I'm not much of a coin worker but I am familiar with some of the sleights used. I heard of the Mutobe palm just recently. How does it differ from some of the other palms? Is it found in Bobo's book? Who invented it?
"Knowledge comes from finding the answers, but understanding what the answers mean is what brings wisdom." - Anonymous
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Paul Sherman Inner circle Arlington, VA 1511 Posts |
It's not in Bobo. It was invented by Mutobe. It's in "Coins on Edge" and I think also in "New Magic From Japan" by Richard Kaufman.
It allows you to show your apparently hand empty palm down with the fingers widely spread.
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase
some youtube videos |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Hmmmm... something of an item of contention there.
Wesley James suggests the neutral term "Vertical Thumb Palm" so we don't diss folks who've been using that or a very similar grip for a couple of generations now, including such names as John Ramsay.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Daegs Inner circle USA 4291 Posts |
I thought mutobe was a verson or specific way of doing the angle palm, to give the classic mutobe appearence of the hand...
While the mechanics, were others going to the extreme with this palm to give the appearence of a flat hand palm down with fingers open? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Have to be a little vague here as this is an open thread.
Once you put the coins there, you can go from a flat hand, as in the slap transfer in the Ramsay routines, to a gripping position (thumb in-down) to pick up a wand. Most performers opt not to do very angly displays which may look marginally impressive to a few in the audience while risking exposure to many in the audience.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Kainoa Elite user NewArk, Delaware 424 Posts |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
Jonathan, over twenty years ago I put out my book where I called the position used independently by many over the years Angle Palm, and as I mentioned to Wesley I don't feel we should give it yet another name. He has done some work using the position, and I think he feels his name more appropriately describes the position than my own. The term describes the position where the coin is held by the thumb at an angle to the palm. There are many different position preferences of the coin against the palm, from Ramsay (held deep in the palm) to Mutobe (held with the thumb parallel to the fingers). Each position necessitates different techniques for getting into and out of this position. In hindsight, I probably should have tried to find out if Ramsay or Chanin developed the position first, and kept the original name. There is an interesting segment on the history and application of Angle, Mutobe, and more in the COINvention DVD grip forum... Whoa, Kainoa, you posted at the same time and you beat me to it!
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Quote: Unless memory totally fails, and it doesn't, it is in Bobo under the name of *Drobina* palm... ...John Ramsay did use it and probably invented it himself too...so did I actually, without even recognizing it was in Bobos..
On 2005-06-03 19:51, Paul Sherman wrote: I'm also almost sure, a lot of other people have *invented* and used it without knowing it already existed. It is such a *natural*...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
Frank Drobina used the position in Bobo with Dimes, but I think that both Ramsay and Chanin predate him.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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mike gallo Inner circle 1341 Posts |
Real men classic palm.
Mike |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
How about we give Mutobe the credit for the display position? Such would honor his words and also what he mentioned as his intent. That work for folks? MD= Mutobe Display. ??
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Sam Tabar Inner circle Austin, Texas 1050 Posts |
Thank you for all the replies guys!
Kainoa, thanks for the link.
"Knowledge comes from finding the answers, but understanding what the answers mean is what brings wisdom." - Anonymous
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Mano Inner circle 1028 Posts |
Okay, so it be called the Mutobe Display.
I like the vertical thumb palm as well. It sounds interesting. LOL. best regards. Mano. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
All I'm trying to do is acknowlege the way Mutobe-san uses the grip while avoiding any contention over the various in-print desriptions that sound VERY similar to the grip.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Sam Tabar Inner circle Austin, Texas 1050 Posts |
Anybody got a video clip of this move or sleight?
"Knowledge comes from finding the answers, but understanding what the answers mean is what brings wisdom." - Anonymous
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
I think it is generally accepted that the position that Mutobe uses, and popularized by Kainoa Harbottle, is already called Mutobe palm. Why create yet more names for the same thing? It only leads to confusion.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Sam Tabar Inner circle Austin, Texas 1050 Posts |
Good point there, Michael. If it's generally known as the Mutobe palm why change it?
"Knowledge comes from finding the answers, but understanding what the answers mean is what brings wisdom." - Anonymous
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-05 03:41, brianclementsvatua wrote: Most simply Michael, for the same reason we call the Malini Subtlety using CP by his name and not the Kaps Subtlety. Because SOME of us care about the provenance of ideas and material. This also goes for the proper names of things like Elmsley's Ghost Count. What is "generally known" is usually inaccurate and reflects a sorry state of affairs. In the long term it's better to be part of the solution than part of the problem.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
OK, Jonathan, the reason we know call the Malini subtlety as such is because we know that he used it prior to Kaps. What you want to do is to change a name from Mutobe palm to Mutobe display because in your opinion, it’s a more accurate name. I disagree with this. First of all, I have been using angle palm since I was 15 years old -that's 35 years ago (OK, 34 years and six months). I used the name because I kept finding the same palm used by many different people, and no one seemed to know or agree on who used it first. I originally thought Mutobe palm was basically what I did, and said so some years ago on this very forum. However, once I saw Kainoa utilize the position in his own magic, I realized I was wrong - it is a very extreme variation, and probably of all the position variations where the thumb grips the coin(s), this is the only one I feel comfortable with having its own name. Its use and intent is different, the angle that the coins are gripped is very different, and the way to get into the grip is different. I also think that since Mutobe is still a very active magician over in Japan, he should be the one to decide if he wants to change the name - certainly not us.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-05 09:45, Michael Rubinstein wrote:...Its use and intent is different, the angle that the coins are gripped is very different, and the way to get into the grip is different.... If this is the case, IE that we are not just talking about the thumb roll out to offer a flat hand display, agreed. Thanks for the clarification. When I saw the transfer of coins into a similar position on page 45, figure 59 of The Ramsay Classics in the Cylinder and Coins routine, I wanted to make sure we are not losing provenance on something that we know was in use back in 1900.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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