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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-07-06 23:59, chrisrkline wrote: And then take that imitation and other ideas and go out and work it in front of real audiences and then maybe that artistic dream MIGHT happen. But the magician should try to strive to be a financial success as well. Quote:
On 2005-07-06 23:59, chrisrkline wrote: Don Alan once said, "If magicians copy his act and play with it in their own bed room he didn't mind. But when they take my act and then perform it in shows and charge money to do it - well that just isn't Right!" Quote:
On 2005-07-06 23:59, chrisrkline wrote: I don't say something about another magicians performance unless they ask me. And I would not say something with all his friends around him I would take them aside and tell them - in a more privet way. People often need to find their own way - but if he keeps performing and starts to do shows - they will learn!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
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On 2005-07-07 11:07, bishthemagish wrote: My concerns there ( tactics for audiences versus how we relate as peers ) are twofold. First the lay audience does not need to be involved or teased by the mechanics of a routine. They just want to be entertained. Second, the "secrets" are not of interest to other magicians either unless they are available as resources to other magicians. If you are offering the mechanics to other magicians, the focus might be more useful if placed upon utility as opposed to cleverness. When used in performance, the secrets are used to make the magic for the audience. Two completely different perspectives. When we set our language across those two perspectives, we wind up trying to impress magicians with how clever we are, and trying to impress laymen with how impossible our magic looks. In both cases we are asking our audience to confront our ego issues. "can you figure out what I'm doing from the clues I'm giving you" is how one presents a puzzle and not magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
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On 2005-07-07 11:24, bishthemagish wrote: I don't disagree. I did not mean to imply that you were ever rude to someone's face. I was commenting on the fact that you did post up above about the "Monkey-see, Monkey-do" Malone clone. I was simply saying that, while you did not say this to his face, you were critical, here, about someone specific who might be a member. I am not against being honest, but saying a perfomance was not interesting or that his act was lacking on a technical level is one thing, to say something about their motivation or desire--e.g. their character (and "monkey-see, monkey-do" says something about someone's character) is borderline wrong. Take, for example, anyone on these forums who is first starting in magic and who is impressed by Malone. Maybe he realizes, on one level, that he is coppying some of Malones mannerisms. But he is seriously trying to develop an entertaining show. He knows Malone is funny, and the magician in question feels he has a similar, whacky, comedy style. That person might now feel uncomfortable showing some card effect to some magicians, even in private for fear that the magician will call them "monkey-see, monkey-do" behind their back. I am saying that when we watch a magician, it isn't a quesion of whether we keep quiet or say something. If we are watching a performance, then we should say nothing. But if it is something performed at a Ring meeting, I think we owe the magician our, honest, polite, comments. But they should be based only on whether, in our best assesment, the routine is entertaining or would be for a lay audience. If we do not like a particular type of trick, or a particular type of performance, it is best that we say nothing at all. I said it before. If Alan's routine was not published, it was wrong to use it in any way at all. Mr. Haydn has sold some of his material. He has no problem with us performing his routines, as written. He has not published his whole teaching act, and therefore it would be wrong to use that in our own shows. This is hard for me, since, although I have never seen his whole act, and therfore could not copy it, I am a long time teacher and I have always uses some of my teaching style in my routines even before I knew who Whit was, because I feel comfortable with it. I think that is why I like his routines, because the patter is weirdly similar to what I do with my eight graders when I am being silly and a little weird (which is important when you work day in and day out with 13 year olds to keep them interested.) This does not preclude us saying what we feel about mimickry, or what we feel is the best method of getting to where we want to go in magic. We should be honest about what criteria we use to judge.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I feel that to be successful as a performer and an artist I think that a magician must draw the line somewhere.
Take Don Alan and the Benson bowl. Roy Benson did this effect as a stand up encore feature to his stand up act in the smaller night clubs. There was no load to this routine. Roy Benson was a comedy act that was laughs until the end. But he would close or do one encore with one kind of what would be considered - a real sleight of hand feat of magic. Then he would do the long pour salt (Vernon's method). The Multiplying balls, or the Benson bowl. People would watch the act - laugh and then he would close with this serious moment of magic to - what I think let the audience know that he was a real magician and one that paid his DUES in his study of magic! Don Alan took the Benson bowl idea to the close up table and added the loads. In other words he did not copy the idea as a carbon copy. He expanded on the idea and took it into a different market and a different realm of a performance venue. Chop Chop - used a large chop cup the same way. It was a closing feature of his stand up night club act. I used to have one of the original chop cups and it was quite large. And he also did not load anything in the cup at the end of the encore. Don Alan made the cup smaller - added loads and used it as a close up feature in his act. The Roy Benson Bowl Routine was published by the Phoenix at one time by Roy Benson. But it was made popular by Don Alan. Don Alan never published his way of doing it (It may be in the Don Alan Book) but he did it on TV. So a lot of magicians started to do it exactly like Don Alan did. Right or wrong I make no judgment about magicians if they do this. Now we have video and DVD products that have a performance of magicians doing their acts. Then they explain the magic effects. Magicians look at the performance - write down the jokes and the gags. Learn the effect - add the jokes and the gags to the effect they just learned from the SHOW that is on the product. And go out and do it exactly like the performer does on the product. Is the performer on the product SELLING THE RIGHTS FOR THEM TO DO THE ACT? Or just selling the rights of how he DOES each effect and NOT the bits of business in the show part of the product? Does the customer THINK THAT THEY PURCHACED THE RIGHTS TO PERFORM THE ACT (carbon copy word for word) including all the little bits of business that takes years to come up with while performing shows, when they purchased the product? Most performers like Don Alan would want them to just use their show as a guide to help them see how to handle people and the audience while performing these effects. Not steal the show and perform it in a monkey see monkey do sort of way - and not investing any time it takes to learn to perform these effects. Because doing it in a show is the part of the education that the students today are missing. The student perhaps should watch the show - learn the effects. Then go out and do shows and find his or her own voice and bits of business through performance of the material that they learned.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
This is a thorny issue. I think that if you publish your act in teaching DVD, then it is all up for grabs. If I wanted to only teach my moves for a routine, I would do that, and not give away all of the gags. Gazzo did this in his earlier book on the cups. He taught the routine and moves but did not include his lines and bits of business, because he was performing regularly. His most recent book on the cups includes most of the lines, and he says to use them if you want.
So often, though, a routine is not complete without that extra stuff. Other than the loading method, there are few moves in a simple chop cup routine, like Alan's. It is the patter and jokes and rhythms that make his routine great. It is now published by Ron Bauer. I own it, paid Mr. Bauer (who I assumed compensated Mr. Alan,) and when I perform it it is done pretty much like Alan did it himself. That is my right. Twenty-years ago, I would never have performed the routine, because it would have disrespected Mr. Alan to do so. If someone puts out a DVD teaching a routine, and then includes video clips of the routine performed live, I would not perform the routine like the magician if I knew the magician had serious troubles with that. I would have that much respect. If I were to perform any of your published routines, I would rewrite the patter as much as possible, out of respect for your feelings. Although we have never met, we live close enough that there is always a chance we might meet or see each other perform. I would not feel comfortable using your exact patter because I know that is something that troubles you.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-07-07 14:10, chrisrkline wrote: If A video or a DVD has TWO parts. There is a show part - And then a teaching part. And the bits of business and gags are not in the teaching part of the product. Could it be that this second part - the teaching part be the only thing the customer really has the RIGHT to do in his or her act when they buy the product? Does the customer THINK THAT THEY PURCHACED THE RIGHTS TO PERFORM THE WHOLE ACT (carbon copy word for word) including all the little bits of business that takes years to come up with while performing shows, when they purchased the product? Or do the HAVE THE RIGHT TO THE WHOLE ACT just because they purchaced the product?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
Obviously it depends on the DVD. When Ammar does his ETMCM, he is obviously presenting tricks and patter for us to use. In most of the L&L DVDs, they are performing in front of that annoying, paid, studio audience. I always wondered if that was really the exact way that Bill Malone or Sankey did their shows. In those cases, yes I will use the patter if it fits.
For some magicians, even if it is their exact, line for line, routine, it is OK. Whit Haydn's Comedy Ring routine is performed at the Castle. Based on everything he has written, I have no problem using his material, exactly as he wrote it. If the patter is written down in a book, it is clearly up for grabs, if it is published as a teaching tool. I am not sure there is a difference with a DVD, if it is published on a teaching DVD and if the performed does not say that the lines and gags are not to be used. If the performance is not a teaching DVD, then you cannot use it. I would certainly try to honor the magician and follow his wishes. But, personally, I would not include a performance portion of a routine on a teaching DVD if I did not want that to be used by the magicians who bought the DVD. In other words, I would suggest that the magicians communicate with us if they want us to leave the lines and bits alone on a teaching DVD. Why include the live routine if they don't want us to use it?
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-07-07 15:34, chrisrkline wrote: So what is it you are saying? Is that Bill Malone sold the performing rights to his act and show as well as his effects to whoever wants to use them that got his DVD? And you have no problem using any of the material if the patter fit the effect? I don't know about the legal copyright issue but is that morally correct? Quote:
On 2005-07-07 15:34, chrisrkline wrote: Why be creative when you can just buy a DVD? An interesting view point. Here is another interesting view point I am just going to toss onto the table. To be creative one must have a set of tools and principles. Using the set of tools and principles one then can mix and match and with inspiration then one can become creative. ES Andrews or Erdnase did this when he wrote the classic book expert at the card table. And it was one of the tools that Dai Vernon used to be creative and that is shows in the Vernon books. Creativity must be exercised or the more a magician IS creative the more ideas they will get and the more creative they become. If they think that they can't be creative or they are not good at it. They do not exercise the creativity or the NEED to be creative. Then they don't develop. Being creative is one of the things that is learned and exercised in a FULL EDUCATION OF MAGIC or any other art. Perhaps what the video and the DVD market has done to magic is taken away the NEED for some magicians to BE creative. If they just buy a DVD product and they do what is on the DVD I don't see that inspiring the NEED to be creative. In my view point a magic education a full magic education is earned not purchased. It is earned and honed by the performance of what I learn. Like everyone the ideas start out stinko and then after many many shows they are worked and slanted into something that the audience enjoys. The point of all this is creativity is part of the magic education and it isn't for sale - it is earned and worked for!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
Yes, if they put the patter on the teaching DVD or book, then it is my legal and ethical right to use it, unless they specify otherwise.
You can ask Mr. Haydn what he thinks about someone like me, relatively new to magic, using his exact routine. He sells it and teaches it and has no trouble with me using it exactly as written. He in fact has stated that he does many routines, developed by others, that are nearly exactly as originally performed, and no one would accuse Whit of being anything less than a creative performer. With all due respect, I don't appreciate the comment, "Why be creative if you can buy the DVD." I have not put you down. I have show respect for your work, that I have seen. I have said I would not use your patter and bits of business because doing so would bother you. You do not have to talk with me in this forum. I am just some low life beginner who admits to using others patter from their published teaching DVDs. This really seems to bother you (Monkey see, Monkey do and now, "Why be creative if you can buy the DVD.") I wish to perform good shows for the spectators. I don't care if my method of doing that is up to the standard of some magicians. It is an acceptable practice to others I respect. I buy routines that I feel have proven to be effective magic. I try to honor the creators of these routines to learn these and perform them in a way they were meant to be. I thought doing good performances is the point. If it is the point, then what difference on how a magician gets to the point where they can do good shows? But to comment on the "Why be creative if you can buy the DVD." Yes, I buy the DVD because I am not creative, or at least not as much as I would like. Or maybe, my creativity has improved because I did buy the DVDs and performed them as written.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-07-07 18:01, chrisrkline wrote: Yes you have but why get into that! I have not put you down or have argued or am I trying to give or change opinions. I asked that question based on both the information given to me and a general way observing the young and old in magic that get products like this. It is not a right or wrong issue with me. And it doesn't bother me personally if magicians want to carbon copy the work of others. But it does bring out a very interesting question in both the learning of magic and the performance of magic. About is the NEED to be creative in magic being not that important because of the DVD and video market in magic? Quote:
On 2005-07-07 18:01, chrisrkline wrote: I thought magicians buy the DVD in order to learn magic. But to be creative in magic they MUST take the steps in that direction and work for it and earn it. Because them being creative doesn’t seem to be part of the price of the product. They must take what they learn - the set of rules and principles and then be inspired by the show part and then do the work by doing shows. And that is how to become a magician in my view point!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
The point is what is the best way for a new magician to become creative. Creativity is more than just doing it differently. It is the ability it take what you know and arrange it in a new way that is valuable. In other words, if all I want to do an original routine, all I have to do is change something. If I want to do a creative--a good--routine, then that original routine needs to be good magic. What makes a magical routine good is based on certain priciples and will come about if I first really understand what a good routine is. But knowledge has to be more than simply watching a DVD. It has to infuse your whole person, which can only come from performing and working with the things you learn. That means reading Vernon, without performing Vernon, will not give you that deep knowledge.
Of course I buy the DVD to learn. But that learning is superficial until I perform what is on the DVD, exactly, in front of spectators. That is when creativity will start to flow.
Chris
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Agreed about the learning, doing THEN FEEDBACK BOTH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL.
That last few steps is where most who take the effort to learn falter. One's instincts can be a great resource, as is audience feedback. What works for you? When you find what does NOT work in the routine as written, you have found new challenges. You can change yourself or mannerisms, and/or change the actions to suit your own persona. Serious choices.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
I don't mean to imply that I carbon copy everything. Most of the routines I do, and I do very few now on the streets for spectators, now have many changes and adaptations that I have added. The cups and balls still follows Gazzo's basic routine, and I do some of his lines and gags, but many are now mine, some of which I picked up through feed back from the spectators. I also have made many minor changes in some of the moves in a few places, but only after working his for more than a year. I do not yet spend the time trying to invent new effects, but I feel I am getting better at assessing a routine to come up with improved methods, especially if a newer magician develops the routine. In other words, I find that I can be helpful to those who do try to be creative. But I try not to muck with the classics too much, because I am not as confident in being able to improve those.
Also, I do not feel that any magician should take my advice to mimic if all they are going to do is pick up the latest Malone, Sankey, Ammar, etc, DVDs from L&L. This is not putting down these DVDs, since I have some and find them in some cases very good. It is just that I believe a person will do best to study the true classics too, not just someone else's interpretation of the classics. I have improved far more reading what some of you have written over the last couple of years and looking to some of the original sources such as Vernon, Hoffman, Maskelyne, etc. And I firmly believe that one should think about why a routine works. It does no good for your education to take something from Vernon for granted. But my understanding of why a routine works is far deeper now than it was three months into magic mainly because I tried to give the classics time to really understand them—and I have a long way to go. This is why I have some trouble when I see someone brand new to magic and who has only seen magic performed on Penguin Magic DVDs thinking they can invent a market a new trick at the age of 13. I also know that I will know far more in three more years than I do now. I have time. I enjoy performing the classics.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
I have not been able to come up with any magician that made a name for themselves by doing a carbon copy/mimic act of someone else. And I never met an older magician while I was learning that advised me - if I wanted to be a success in magic - to copy Don Alan's act or someone else.
Many in magic thought it was strange that I did not just do my Dads material. Many of them pinched it - why didn't I. I remember a story about a guy that did a carbon copy of Del Ray's act and then was booked at the Magic Castle. He did not last the week - in fact not the first night - and to say it politely - it was NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts |
I have already agreed that to make it to the top, or to any serious level as a magician, you have to have your own act, but there are still many top name magician who do other's acts, with permission, exactly as written. It may not be their main act, but they are side acts that they can use for the same audience who has seen their main act, which would be original. I think Whit has stated that he does some routines that were originally done by others and he does them almost exactly as written, although his main act is original with Whit, although even there, some of his routines are based on other classic acts.
I would never perform at the castle (which is true on many levels ) with something that was a carbon copy of some other act. Again, I am trying to guide brand new magicians on what they might do today, rather than trying to invent the wheel, not what they have to do in ten years. I always tell new magicians, and myself, that they will have to eventually develop some original material, if they want to be a top pro, but that they have time to really study and perform the classics, which I believe is the best way to really learn why the classics are great.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Here are one or two more points I would like to make on the carbon copy performance issue.
Back when I was in school and computers were just starting out there were stories about how computers could copy the great works of art. And would that make the real works of art have less value? At that time the copies that were made by computer were considered to be a Pseudo art and not art. Because they were not painted by an artist. There was no artist feeling in the work. The computer did not have the ability to draw and paint from feeling and express it. It was considered a copy - a Pseudo art at best. Taking that and looking at magic and how to make money with it. One might question how much the entertainment world is going to pay for a Pseudo performance of magic? People do this in magic (right or wrong I make no judgment on this) and then wonder why some agents think that magicians are worth about a dime a dozen. Just a few more thoughts I toss onto the table.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-07-07 14:10, chrisrkline wrote: Is a song not complete without words?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
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On 2005-07-09 09:41, bishthemagish wrote: Unless it is a bird song, a song is not complete without words--it wouldn't be a song then, would it? |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-07-10 20:42, Whit Haydn wrote: I suggest you hum then... Ever hear Classical gas?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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caseman New user Greensboro, NC 56 Posts |
Whit,
You have absolutely nailed it and for some reason it just doesn't seem to be getting through. One other item of note is some folks here seem to really like themselves and their opinions, but be darned if you express yours. It's like talking to a stop sign. You will never convince them that they are wrong, which is not what you were saying anyway. This is an opinion format, but some are so dogmatic in their approach that instead of actually reading and trying to understand what you wrote, they are rushing through it in order to respond with their opinion. It is like when you are talking to someone you can tell that instead of listening to you, they are thinking how they are going to respond. It's all about them. Too bad. Your advice was well written and definitely on target. Cheers!!
"Don't forget the ACES"
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