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Chicagomagi New user Riverside, IL 93 Posts |
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On 2005-07-25 10:24, Barrett_James wrote: First post here so hopefully I don't goof up. Anyway, I'm 41 just getting back into magic as a hobbyist and I have made a couple of trips to Midwest Magic and Magic Inc. in Chicago. I have to tell you that while you can find "deals" on the Internet, there's no substitute for going to a real magic shop. For me it really fuels the passion that I have for it by watching pros and talking about it with real humans. (No offense I think online forums are great too.) Well, I'm here in Tucson visiting relatives and I plan to go and visit Williams Magic! |
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lane99 Elite user 421 Posts |
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On 2005-06-18 02:37, MagicChris wrote: I think the internet does have a lot to do with it. But it's in conjunction with another factor that people who hang out in this forum usually can't grasp. Namely, the overall market for magic is small. The reason there is a GAP in every mall in every city all over the world is because it seems most people in the world can't get by without pants. But most can get by without buying a magic trick. Personally, I don't appreciate how magic is marketed/sold in general. Whether on the internet, or a BM store, the customer's concerns are blatantly subordinated to the vendor's in a way that people would find intolerable if we were talking about any other type of product. Please don't confuse my meaning. I don't mean, as others may have been ranting about, the salespeople are usually officious. I mean I don't like buying things where I'm not told exactly what it is; and what I AM told is misleading; and then, once I do find out what is it, I can't return it if it doesn't suit my needs. I don't think there's many other products which make such sold in such a harsh way. Apart from that, though, I would still sometimes get a kick out of visiting a BM store if there was any here. I live in Vancouver, BC. I don't know of any complete magic store here. There are a couple of magic nooks in some novelty stores. Actually, though, by coincidence, I just tried to phone one of these shops today, and their phone line was disconnected (store name: Gizmoz). I'm not sure if it was a momentary glitch, or whether this shop bit the dust. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Beth:
Don't let your experience with this sexist idiot sour you against all of the magicians in your town. He is just one member of the local magic club. He may have a lot of clout with them, but he does not represent ALL B&M magic shops. He has demonstrated to you (and the rest of us) that he is either a liar or completely uninformed as to what is available in magic. He deserves to go out of business. Go to the magic luncheon. Have lunch a few times, then lay your best magic on them. Do something they can't explain. Join their local club. Infiltrate it. Take it over. Run it right. There are a couple of shops that are on the internet and that show up at conventions that I have a lot of trouble with -- there is one that orders everything that is very popular and sells it for just a few percent over wholesale. I'm not going to give out a name. They won't last. They can't. At some point, they will find that their operating expenses do them in. Unless they are independently wealthy, their shop will collapse. There is another that sells lots of knockoff merchandise. "Wonderful-Bar" instead of Wonder-bar, etc. These people are a boil on the behind of the magical retailer, and the magical inventor. Magic shops are like almost anything else -- Sturgeon's Law applies to them. I was in London last week, and spoke to Alan Alan. Alan ran a great shop. When he retired, he did not sell it. He knew that people came in to see him and not the merchandise. He was a good dealer. But even some of the "venerable ones" have their problems. When I was in Vegas, I phoned a local magic shop to find out about what they had in cups. I got strange answers from the help. Maybe I should have stuck with books. Regarding good internet dealers -- there are two that I know quite well and feel very comfortable dealing with.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-17 08:29, maxello wrote: Speaking of atmosphere, have you ever been to Abbotts? Man they have TONS of it!! you can pick up a new effect, or a copy of Genii or "Magic" magazine, and you can just get lost in the tons of historical posters of great magicians of the past that literally PLASTER their walls AND ceiling! Abbott's is a place in which you can literally taste and FEEL the magic in the atmosphere. You never know who will stop in and that you might be looking at the sparkling glass show cases replete with every kind of magic your heart desires one second, and the next second find yourself face to face with Jeff McBride, or Shimada, or Lord knows who. If this "brick and mortar " shop closed, it would be a sad, sad day indeed for the magic world...because in closing, years and years of magic's rich and colorful history would be gone with the wind. I think I would weep a river if it ever happened.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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jrbobik Regular user Philadelphia 104 Posts |
I am going to add a couple of thoughts.
I always cringe when I hear about bad experience from customers. Matter of fact customer service is so bad anymore that my face is in a constant cringe. Not a very pretty site. Think of it this way. When you go out shopping over the weekend keep track of how many times you are treated poorly as a customer. Then imagine going to work in a retail store. How many people do you think are going to walk though your door and still be happy after all the bad customer experiences that they just had at the other stores? It makes you job a lot harder to help them now. How many times have you been in a store that was packed and you could not find anyone to help you except the one person behind the counter that was too busy talking about their date last night with someone on the phone? OK, I will get to the point! It is very hard to give great customer service or sales if you do not get to see how it is done properly. A lot of the problem is that so many managers/owners do not have the time and in a lot of cases the knowledge to teach the staff the right way to help customers. They do not realize the impact this has on their business. So, what do we do? We tell the staff, managers and anyone that will listen that their service is poor or they are too pushy. Sometimes people do not realize they are being pushy. I loved it when someone told me what we did wrong. A lot of the time it was something I would have never thought would be a problem. I would then try and fix it if I could. Sometimes there was nothing I could do except listen and make the customer understand I really did care about them. We need to let the stores and not just magic stores know that we are not happy with the service that is being provided. Smart stores will listen. Bad ones will not and over time will go out of business. Real stores are a two way street. The store needs to supply a good product and service and the customer has to be willing to buy the items. What I mean by that is not come in the store ask the person to demonstrate several items then go home and buy it from the internet at a cheaper price. The extra money you might pay at the store saved you from reading a killer description or seeing a video with perfect angles and then getting the product to find out it really is an awful product and it goes in that box we all have labeled "bad magic". So trust the people behind the counter and let them know what they are doing right or wrong. I do it all the time and have seen changes that I suggested actually happen and guess what those stores have my business for a long time. Please visit the brick stores and let them know how they are doing. You never know you could just turn that bad store into a great one and you never know who might just walk in while you are there. Just my opinion. Thanks for reading! John Bobik
"No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted"
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I do more shopping by phone than I do by direct internet ordering. I have found that in most cases, I can have crucial questions answered by knowledgeable staff, which leads to fewer bad purchases.
Also, many of my purchases tend to be of high end equipment. So I want it to work. I don't want to have to return it. I ask very specific, probing questions that are crucial to what I want to do, then I add this, "If this isn't suitable for my performing conditions, all of which I have outlined to you, may I return it, if I leave it in original condition?" The good shops will let you do this, if you already know the secret of the trick. The bad ones won't. But don't abuse this. Otherwise it won't work for any of us! There is such a thing as "internet networking." Good internet dealers do want us to have a good experience shopping with them. However, beware the really deep discounters -- the fellows who offer you magic for "5 to 10% above cost." Here's why. Most of them don't know anything about magic. They also don't know anything about business. They forget to work in their operating expenses, and then suddenly they end up with a supply problem. They will forget to pay a supplier, and they won't be able to fill your order. Then they charge the item to your card without sending it. This has happened to several magic shops in the last year or two. It happens when a magic shop is under-capitalized. Much of what you buy at a magic shop comes from a central supplier. Unless your shop orders huge quantities of "stuff," they get the same price as any other store. The brick and mortar store has to figure in rent, property tax, phone lines (business phones!), salaries and a host of other things. The internet store is supposed to factor these things in, but may forget about them. The big one is taxes. If they don't pay them, there are severe penalties involved. But they can even operate without a business phone. So, when you order from an internet only business, ask yourself these questions: 1) Are there any magicians on their staff? 2) Do they answer your questions from a basis of real knowledge? 3) Do they have a physical location, other than someones bedroom? 4) Do they charge your card before the goods are there? Some do, some don't.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I went to a "real, brick and mortar magic shop" yesterday and had a great time. In the past, I HATED these shops. There was always a cheesey salesman trying to sell me something I didn't want or need. This shop didn't have that and I spent a couple hundred dollars, as I've posted elsewhere.
I'm sure there are many "brick" shops that are run by folks that care about magic and can demo items without taking advantage of newbies. It was fun to handle a prop before buying and see a "live" demo.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
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On 2005-12-28 00:06, MagicChris wrote: Somebody has finally seen the light ! When I go to the Magic Sojourn, John never forces anything down my throat - but he makes sure to inform me what he got in new that week, which is what I like. He tries to tailor this to my known interests - bizarre and spooky - when he can. Not only that, but he's saved me money by providing insight to the effects on the market that aren't what they seem, you can never get that kind of service online, where your decision is at the mercy of the standard mfg's description, and hopefully a few bonafide customer reviews. He's honest to the point of possibly losing a sale or two here and there, but in the long run the repeat business and trust he generates will more than make up for it. It's just a matter of finding the right shops - I got lucky on my first "hit", but they're out there.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net |
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magicsojourn New user Bristol, PA 24 Posts |
Thanks Mystician, I review items before I get them in. A major source for reviews has been the magic Café. I also try to get reviews from my customer base. I don't have the free time like I used to in learning new magic so I rely on these reviews.
Honesty is the best policy and I thank you for your comment. Magically yours, John B. Magic Sojourn
John Bodner
Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you, and will bless you. For to you, and to your seed, I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
The one shop I went to I really like. It's a bit far away, but a great place. So, there are good ones.
This week I was driving by the bad one again. I decide I’ll go in and get Magic magazine. BUT…I’ll be nice and buy a couple of things, as over priced as they are. So, I get a DVD and a Coin. Counter/Owner isn’t happy with that and wants to show me the latest thing out there. I already have it and before he can go any further I say “oh that’s a great effect, I use it all the time”. and he says “ you bought it from someone else? Shame on you”. So I say “ coming in here is like going t a used ca lot” and I walk out without making a purchase. The other place is worth the drive!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I know a guy who has been the owner/operator of at least four different magic shops. He can't stay in business. He has the kind of attitude that drives customers away. You walk in and say, "Hey! Joe! How are you?"
And the whining starts -- "Well, my wife is sick, my son is in the hospital, my gall bladder hurts and business is slow...." OTOH, when Archie was in business, he kept people coming in. I never saw his shop empty. NEVER. I had to drive 25 miles to get to his shop, but I went there at least twice a week. Archie was very special. He had a condition which caused the tendons on his left hand to contract. The doctor told him he would have to amputate his right little finger or he would end up with a claw for a right hand. So Archie told him, "Well, I guess I'd better learn some jokes about missing a finger." The doctor said, "What are you, some kind of maniac?" Archie said, "No, doctor. My shop is called Archie's Fun Shop. If I can't laugh at myself, I can't laugh at anything." The doctor agreed with that. So Archie asked me to write him a line about missing a finger. I held out my hand for a handshake and said, "Give me four." He nearly fell out laughing! And this was before "Alf" was on television, too. When Archie died, he was well-off. Joe is still broke.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Bill, thanks for sharing that story. It goes beyond magic. It shows how far attitude can take you in this life.
I'm glad I found the "good" shop, because I never knew why anyone liked these shops.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
This thread has inspired me to post something else that may be of value to the forum.
When you get right down to it, buying furniture really isn't that much different than buying magic. You just can't put ill-advised purchases in a shoebox in your garage. And good furniture is not cheap. You can buy furniture on the internet, if you don't mind your wife telling you that it's ugly when it gets to your house, or that it won't fit through the front door. And the quality may not be at all like what you see in the photos on the internet. There is a fellow in Houston who sells furniture. If you have ever been to Houston and watched television for more than an hour, you have seen a commercial with this guy jumping up and down with a fistful of bills and yelling: "I REALLY WILL SAVE YOU MONEY!" His name is Jim McKingvale, AKA "Mattress Mack." Mack came to Houston about 25 years ago with $1500 in his pocket and a big dream. He set up a tent showroom on I-45 and sold furniture with high pressure salesmen. He was successful for a while, but his sales fell off when people became disenchanted with his methods. Then he discovered the writings of William Demming, who introduced the concept of high quality production into Japan. Mack began to suspect that he wasn't doing the best thing by his customers and sales people. So he adopted new policies. No longer were you attacked by an aggressive salesman when you went into the store. Instead, a salesman would approach you, ask you what you wanted, and guide you to what you asked for. If you had questions, he would answer them. The salesmen were no longer on commission. There were bonuses, but the drive to push people into buying was no longer there. People felt more at ease in Mack's store. He also guaranteed same day delivery. He has furniture of just about any level of quality you could ask for, except for total custom work. The first time I went in there, I left without purchasing anything because I was offended. Now, I'm a regular customer, even though I have to drive a long way to get to his place. I save money by shopping there. And any time you go into his shop, you will find it full of customers, and more important, he will be there. His motto -- late to bed, early to rise, work like Hell and advertise. Now he is a very wealthy man. He contributes furniture to the needy and he is a pillar of the community. I could tell you more stories about him, but I don't want to fill this up with non-magical material. If any magic dealer worked the same way Mack does, he would very likely become a wealthy person.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RickyD New user South Carolina 91 Posts |
Something I've seen as a trend recently, and I believe a couple of you have mentioned something like this already -- magic shops that have "diversified". One of the two magic shops here in town has just as many (if not more) gags, toys, and things you would find at a place like Spencer's as they do magic tricks. When you walk in, that's the first thing you see. Sure, there's a counter with magic stuff, but that seems to be taking a back-seat to the gags any more. Then there was a shop near where I used to live in Texas that had honestly become a large costume shop with just a little corner area devoted to magic. (I think they may have even changed their name, taking the word "Magic" out of it now. But don't quote me on that.) I'm afraid that, even if we don't lose our brick-and-mortar magic shops outright, we're still losing something when stuff like this happens. (Granted, my "favorite" in-town shop does carry some gags and stuff like that, but it's primarily a magic shop, with just a small rack of gag stuff for those who insist on buying it.)
Is it the internet's fault? Maybe partly. Might also be that they're catering to what the people want, and more and more kids are coming in buying stuff to gross-out their friends or pull pranks and stuff like that. (And as far as the costume shop -- don't know what's going on there.) But I think there might be other factors as well. For example, if my "favorite" shop closes down, it will most likely be because the owner wants to be able to spend more time with family and more time performing professionally than worrying about trying to run a business. There was one other magic shop near where I lived when I was in Texas. (What is it with me living in towns with two competing magic shops?) I became really good friends with that shop-owner, and he told me flat-out that his shop was operating at a loss. He didn't have the shop for the money. (That's why he performed professionally.) He had it to share magic, help people get into the art, etc. And I think that mentality is another thing that's endangered.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen."
-- Philippians 4:23 |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There are only a handful of magic shops that have been able to support themselves entirely through the sale of magic. Almost every one of them has something else that really supports the magic.
There was one shop near here that used to even manufacture a few things -- they are almost entirely a costume shop now. That's not just because costumes are more profitable, though. There are other reasons. Magicians are like any other customers. They appreciate being told the truth. They appreciate a fair price. And they appreciate knowledgeable people behind the counter.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Seattle was fortunate enouh to have a Magician only shop for several years. Unfortunately it closed over a decade ago due to the owner having a stroke.
The NoveltyMagicCostume shop is far from new and more the norm than it is the exception.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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jwebyra Regular user New Jersey 140 Posts |
I was in Tannens in New York yesterday for about 5 minutes and the place was dead. No other customers the whole I was there. There were 2 salespeople talking with themselves. I remember there were usually at least a few people there when they were down on 25th St.
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
Funny you say that. I went to Tannens on my last trip to Monday Night Magic, and when I commented to the snoozing sales person that they were very hard to find he told me "we like it that way" so shooting yourself in the foot is commonly practiced even by the big guys.
HAVE FUN Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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jwebyra Regular user New Jersey 140 Posts |
As terms of being hard to find...yes but I remember it is in the same building as Flosso Magic was. They were on the 4th floor while Tannens is on the 6th. You have to know what you are looking for because there are no signs saying that Tannens is in there except for the sign in the lobby and the security guard sitting there.
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Al Angello Eternal Order Collegeville, Pa. USA 11045 Posts |
And you have to know exactly what you want before you go in, because the sales personell DON'T CARE, and they look at you as if to say why are you bothering me. I love visiting Gothem, but I won't go back to Tannens again.
By contrast I visited Brian Dube's workshop/retail store in Soho the same day, and what a pleasant experience. I spoke to Brian who convinced me that even though my juggling clubs were still good the flashier ones will make me noticed, so I bought the new clubs and highly recomend visiting the finest juggling equipment manufacturer there is in the world the next time you visit NYC. HAVE FUN Al Angello
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/ "Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone" |
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