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gumbimagic
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Richard Osterlind is a master of the art and a gentleman! With that said, I am outraged that people would have the audacity to not just sit back and listen to a master, or possibly just humbly ask questions for understanding. How many more elite masters of the art do we have to lose from the Café' before we learn to bridle our egotistical tongues? How much more free instruction from a master, that would cost thousands of dollars, do we have to lose before we can let our egos go?

Who's next on the vanishing act, Max Maven, Banachek, Scott Alexander? Just take a look at the VIP list of the well known professionals who post regularly on the Café'.

There has been some very mean spirited conversations in the Café' lately, much of it from the unknowns or hardly knowns, toward the elite. Some of the nastiness that I have seen directed toward the elite masters could have possibly made me stop visiting the Café' as well if I were one of them. I guess one could just not dignify the ignorant and presumptuous few, a response to their comments.

Now to answer the questions!

Richard commented on a post I made. It kind of surprised me that someone with Richards notoriety would even read a post of mine on the Café'. His comments helped me to realize that I don't communicate my thoughts very clearly. He helped to clarify a comment I had made about a product.

Scott Alexander has also responded to some of my posts. He gave some great insight into some of the difficulties in performing in Las Vegas. I am glad he was not offended by some of my feeble questions that could have come off as slightly confrontational, now that I look back on it, but he, as Richard is a professional and a gentleman.

What a shame to lose such an asset! I hope he re-thinks his departure.
Michael Bilkis
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They say the key to learning is to listen twice as much as you speak. We were fortunate to have someone worth listening to. OH well, those who can listen to a masters wisdom will excell as a performer and the others will only excell as a critic without a foundation to stand on.
kinesis
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Richard Osterlind has to be one of the most generous mentalists I can think of. Generally mentalists keep their pet effects and routines for themselves, or a few close friends. Richard opens his heart and mind and generously shares his most intimate works. In my short career in the realms of mentalism, Richard has been an inspiration and a great influence.

I hope that someone close to Richard will coax him to read this thread and convince him to stay around The Café a little longer. I look forward to sharing his thoughts when he is the special guest at The Café later this month.

Derek
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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hkwiles
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With due respect Kinesis..why would you want someone to coax him to take some more "punishment" other than for personal reasons? Bit like coaxing your kid to go back to school if they are getting bullied. As I said, I'm sure he has more sense than that, let the man go..there are plenty of other forums (some he already frequents). If people aren't willing to listen to the advice of a master that's their loss. Its just systematic of the whole ethos we have in schools nowadays ..noone wants to learn ..I suspect some of the perpetrators on here are only just out of short pants (many still in them). Disappear Richard . Lifes too short .

Howard
Terry Holley
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As most here seem to agree, Richard has been very cordial and helpful to me also. I admired him fom afar for many years, and was ecstatic when I saw his accessibility at The Magic Café.

If any of you remember a certain poster who showed up every so often under various names (and one who took me to task at least once), you might be interested to see what he has to say about Richard Osterlind on another board. I quote:

"... his thinking and ideas impress me greatly. He could even be the Anneman of this generation."

Something to think about!

My other 2 cents in regards to all the pre-show, off camera work for TV mentalism: I just don't enjoy it. When I read Richard's thoughts on it, I felt he made some very good points.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
kinesis
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Howard, I appreciate where you are coming from and would fully understand if Richard no-longer frequented The Café. However as a regular diner here I'd hate The Café to lose someone that has so much to share, just because of a couple of other customers. I hope his passion for the progression and development of mentalism will bring him back to The Café, that he may continue to share his knowledge.

But, hey Richard the (crystal) ball is in your court!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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hkwiles
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I agree..and it is Richards choice.
Howard
Ola
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What can I say that hasn't already been said??? All 8 of the Osterlind dvd's are the most watched in my library. It always amazed me how such a star could be so accessible. It just shows what a gentleman he is.
Richard, I highly valu your opinion and when a pro like you speaks.... I sit up and take notice.
Cheers
Ola
You laugh because I'm different. I laugh because you are all the same...
Turk
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Thank God that we have Richard's videos and written materials to fall back on. The amazing thing about Richard is the fact that I NEVER viewed any of his material as having been released as a means of making money. His dedication and love of the Art is apparent in all of his released materials. I always felt priveleged to have been able to watch and learn from him (albeit if only in the "second-hand" manner of books and videos).

When you compare Richard's unselfish contributions to the Art with others who seem to release a DVD/effect per week for the sheer monetary benefit of releasing the material, well, there is no comparison. (Does the name of anyone on Penguin Magic ring a bell?)

On top of that, Richard has made himself totally and unselfishly accessible to ANY that asked for assistance. I have always marvelled at how giving and caring and yes, loving, that Richard has always been to all of us and to the perservation and betterment of the Art. All this despite his busy work and performance schedule.

It seems that the culture in the States (if not in the entire world) has become one of instant gratification, lack of respect both for "elders" and those who have earned the right to that respect. Its easy to have an opinion. Opinions are like a*******, every one has one. But to disagree and to PUBLICLY put down the opinion of a Master just seems sooo disrespectful and unthankful. Whatever happened to PMs or to asking for clarification on publicly expressed opinions with which you might disagree? These days, manners and respect just seem so foreign a concept to many.

IMHO, just because you have the ability to cast a contrary public opinion does not give you the right to do so. Lost today is the concept that one must earn the right to do certain things. And, for your opinion to have equal weight and credibility, it must have been forged through the tempering fires of experience and knowledge.

Again, just IMHO. (Your mileage may vary.)

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
entity
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Manners and courtesy are important for EVERYONE. Even those you idolize.

Mike said: <IMHO, just because you have the ability to cast a contrary public opinion does not give you the right to do so.>

Last time I checked, your country's Constitution said otherwise. While I might not agree with or like many of the things said in this forum, unless the writer becomes repeatedly rude or abusive I feel that they all have the right to express their opinion. And I have the right to disagree.

To make assumptions about a writer's experience or knowledge without having full knowledge of their background might be unwise. It is certainly unfair. I've learned a great deal from the wise postings of some people I've never heard of before.

Even experienced and knowledgable people can sometimes behave in ways that are counter-productive. To allow such behaviour to go unchallenged does a disservice to everyone involved, including the person who is behaving badly.

Just my opinion, forged or not.

- entity
Roki
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Many a nation has been forged this way.
Turk
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Quote:
On 2005-07-03 20:54, entity wrote:
Manners and courtesy are important for EVERYONE. Even those you idolize.

Mike said: <IMHO, just because you have the ability to cast a contrary public opinion does not give you the right to do so.>

Last time I checked, your country's Constitution said otherwise. While I might not agree with or like many of the things said in this forum, unless the writer becomes repeatedly rude or abusive I feel that they all have the right to express their opinion. And I have the right to disagree.

To make assumptions about a writer's experience or knowledge without having full knowledge of their background might be unwise. It is certainly unfair. I've learned a great deal from the wise postings of some people I've never heard of before.

Even experienced and knowledgable people can sometimes behave in ways that are counter-productive. To allow such behaviour to go unchallenged does a disservice to everyone involved, including the person who is behaving badly.

Just my opinion, forged or not.

- entity


Entity,

I, of course, was not talking about a LEGAL right and the context of my post indicated as much. I was talking about a SOCIETAL right (i.e., manners and deference and coutesies). It is precisely because a person wishes to insist upon (and fall back upon) his constitutional right to act like a boor that societal norms sometimes get trampled in the process. Lots of times, its not what you say but how you say it that brands your response for what it is. (And you proved it in this case.)

If you feel a major name (like Richard) might be going off the deep end on a particular post or point, why not have the common courtesy of FIRST sending him a PM and privately discuss your "bone of contention" BEFORE publicly giving the guy a verbal broadside and trying to "prove" your superiority or parity with him? Contrary to your postiion, persons of Richard's caliber do NOT lose their entitlement for respect because they deigned to come on the Café and posit some pieces or advice, some performance tips or presentation theories for all to ponder.

But we can agree to disagree. I'm from the Old School where common courtesies and respect for those, who have earned the respect, get the respect they deserve. This includes respect in the manner one responds to public posts of the respected person. You apparently are from the New School where "anything goes" and let it all hang out--courtesy and respect be dam*ed!! If a person is dumb enough to publicly post something, he becomes "fair game" as he opens himself wide open and he gets what he deserves.

Sad. So very sad.

And again, just IMHO. (your mileage may vary)

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
entity
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Turk: Then let's agree to disagree. You make a number of assumptions about me and put a lot of words and concepts into my mouth that I've never said or intended. The context of your post re: legal/societal right was not apparent and was not stated clearly. You made a statment about the who should be allowed to voice a contrary opinion; I respectfully disagreed.

I try to treat others respectfully, untill they become repeatedly abusive and disrespectful to me. Then it's only healthy and reasonable to establish a boundary by letting the person know that you would like them to stop. That's what I did on the earlier thread.

If you'll read my posts, you'll see that I've avoided personal attacks, despite some rather harsh rhetoric being thrown my way. I did point out Richard's behaviour on a previous thread, since the moderators seemed too timid to intervene. I've since been told that I should have spoken with them first. I am happy to do that in the future. I took no pleasure in making that post, but I felt that it was an honest and appropriate reaction to the energy being thrown around at the time.

That quote about opinions being like ***holes is always meant to be demeaning and derogatory to those whose opinions you disagree with. That might not be the best way to create a common ground for a discussion of courtesy and good manners. To accuse someone of boorish behaviour simply because they've chosen to publically disagree with one of your idols seems not to be a very promising basis for constructive discussion either.

If you've read the posts involved, Richard ASKED me to find fault with his arguments. When I did (in what I and many others thought was a respectful way), he became upset and the rest, as they say, is history.

Speaking of history, I'm from a very old school of behaviour, too: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I wish you well, but I can see that we will have to agree to disagree.

- entity
sjdavison
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I must say, Richard will be missed.

I agree, Ola, that his videos are phenomenal, and I watch them regularly - his perfomances show how mentalism should be - amazing, varied, engaging, and above all entertaining - he is a pleasure to watch, when so many DVD's on mentalsim can be dull.

I am astounded by the amount, not to mention quality, of material that he releases. I know, when buying a new product, if it is by Richard or endorsed by him, tht it will be a quality item and something I will USE. Unlike so much stuff out there, yo can guarantee that you are only getting the best.

I hope you reconsider leaving, Richard,

Simon
Simon, 32, UK



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Hexagon
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I think that all of Mr. Osterlind's material is great, and he has contributed a great deal to the art of mentalism, I don't think that anyone would say otherwise. But, I think what Entity is saying is that this is a DISCUSSION board, which is all about voicing opinions on the topic in question, be they opinions from new voices or old, experienced or inexperienced, we can learn from all the comments. The main basis of mentalism is communication, and when we do not listen patiently to the points others have to make, then we miss out on a great many things. I was quite shocked as to the way the Pre-show thread, rather than branching out and discussing the many different viewpoints on this subject (and learning through that experience),became a stalemate. We are here to respect the opinions of others (amateur and professional) and discusss them, not shoot them down in flames. And what is it with all this labelling, just because someone isn't registered under their actual name doesn't neccessarily mean that they are an 'Armchair Expert'.


just my thoughts (if they mean anything),
J X
Matt Andrews
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I have been on holidays for ten days and I'm glad I didn't experience what happened here.

I'm a nobody in this field. I perform for family and friends and am slowly enlarging my audience circle.

But I would never done all of this without Richard's indirect (DVD, e-books) and direct (Posts and PMs) help.

Richard Osterlind is a great help on the café and I really hope he won't be leaving.

Richard, please stay.
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entity
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I forgot to wish all of our American friends a happy Independence Day!

- entity
Richard Busch
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This is really a sad situation. I've never had the pleasure of physically meeting Mr. Osterlind, but I know him through the body of his work, e-mails, phone calls, etc. The guy is a mensch (a really fine, admirable human being), and a professional's professional. He's also a musician with an artistic component. I respect that too in him and sort of feel I understand him more than just a little.

I think some here misunderstand this "opinion" business of endless back and forth chatter, where the opinions are often fired off at a record pace by unknown people on a public board who happen to have a computer and an interest in magic. Believe me, a giving, sharing pro like Richard doesn't want or need to encourage blind faith in him or automatic agreement on everything he says. No, not at all! That isn't his style or need. What I think understandably wore him out (in part anyways) is that he wasn't understood or respected. He's not your peer! He had something to offer, to share. Understand it with a little respect and genuine gratitude. Imagine you were at a Richard Osterlind lecture for $30 or a small private group at $75 a pop. Or imagine you were paying him hundreds of dollars to study with him privately. A certain free and open informed dialogue would naturally be encouraged, of course, but one rooted in respect for a masterful teacher. Remember, he's not your peer. If a loud mouth got out of hand, the others would say "shut the heck up. We paid to come here to learn from the pro, not you."

Agreement in a discussion that is rooted in respect is a bonus when it happens. But without a feeling of being basically understood and respected with or without 100% agreement, well, why bother? This is in part why so many big names visit a group, hear enough from really just a very few that ruin it for the rest, and a light turns on and says, "why bother with this?" That's sad. I don't know, maybe it's the anonymity of the computer. I've received dozens of phone calls from all over the world. People who have a question based on one of my works. It's always a pleasure to share and I do my best to help a sincere reader with a real name and identity. The only problems I ever hear about are on the internet where "Capt. Yahoo" is telling a pro this or that, as if they are peers. The pro bolts and the inevitable pattern completes itself. He tried to give away so much for free, because he loves the art, and his readers, and what did he get?

I feel bad for Richard and feel bad for the vast majority of respectful, interested Café members who understand what I'm saying here and know how to listen with respect, offer their opinions with respect, and everything is fine. Most of you guys and gals are just great. And so is Richard Osterlind. ... rb
Richard Busch
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<BR>RichardBusch@RichardBusch.com
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kinesis
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Mr Busch, I think that sums it up very nicely. Thank you.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Seth speaks
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Thanks, Mr. Busch, for those comments. Well said, indeed. I am among those who will greatly miss Richard Osterlind's comments in these hallowed halls. He was a great inspiration, and helped me and many others through PMs and insightful posts, and he's one of the very few whose books and products are consistently the highest quality. Let's hope he decides to return at some point!

Seth
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