|
|
Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Adam Keisner Veteran user London 335 Posts |
What do you guys think about the difference between these 2 routines? Or how lay people perceive these 2 effects. Both routines are similar in effect in that coins impossibly penetrate a piece of fabric/material. Anyone think laypeople have a preference?
Thanks, Adam |
|||||||||
Vraagaard Inner circle Copenhagen, Denmark 1479 Posts |
Yes, that's a valid question. First and foremost we are talking about two penetration effects and well performed they should in essence be equally strong.
My personal preference is CCC where I introduce the coins doing a coins across effect, then to prevent them from flying around I recommend to tie them up (the spectator is putting them on the ribbon). BTW, in Denmark we have regular coins with holes in them which is great for CCC - just need a thinner ribbon/string. However, Michael Ammars coins through see-through silk is also great magic. Not much of help here I'm afraid. However for walk around etc. I wouldn't do both effects, because they are both penetration effect. Just like I don't do two ripped and restored effects in the same set (cards, napkins, strings) and I also don't do ripped and restored card as well as card links in the same set. What is good about it is, that to keep yourselves on the toes, you can alternate between the two, doing CCC one week and coins through silk the next week. Then eventually you will see what gets the best reactions, and what works best for you. Regards Jan |
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
I don't know CCC that well, but I've seen a demo video (as well as I have looked it up in Troys book again), it looks nice and there are some amazing parts in it, but it plays best at very close range to the spectators.
The Ammar thing plays bigger! Somehow I think there are more possibilities doing MA's Silk version, also when looked at it from a spectator's point of view/effect on a spectator. But I have to take reservations regarding what I said, because of -as mentioned- I soley watched the demo of CCC once and that is some time back. Also a *ribbon* isn't as visible as a silk and so I think a silk plays *bigger*... As you, Adam, are located in the UK, you hopefully have seen Chris Powers version -I did, MANY years back- and I think he altered it since..it was good over 20 years back, so I suppose it even got better. Nevertheless I still rate *Expansion of texture* as high as the Ammar thing, when done well and with a *free* choice of the spectator regarding which coin should penetrate, copper or silver, and when thereafter repeated with the other one without the handkerchief is touched and as a climax the outside coin does join the one inside the hanky held by the spectator. *Expansion of texture* is a true gem when done well and deceptive, as is the Ammar thing.. Here we go again regarding the Ammar thingy is more of a display thing with the spectators watching, whist expansion of texture gives spectator-involvement, he/she does hold the hanky. Yeah, I know, in the final stage a spectator does hold the silk too, but in the *Expansion* routine, the spectator is holding the silk all the time, right from the beginning, this creates more interest and he doesn't fall asleep early .. Somehow I though suspect, the *see-through* silk (Chiffon) version Ammar designed is more aimed at magicians when he developed it, after all it was a main part of his act when he competed at the FISM and did win.. TBH, I love it, but the question was what was more powerfull, the Troy Hooser thing or the Ammar thing, and that reminded me of the classical *Expansion of Texture*.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
Adam Keisner Veteran user London 335 Posts |
Thanks Guys. I am currently finding CCC a bit more user friendly.
|
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Quote: Hellooooooooooo...
On 2005-07-04 19:40, Adam Keisner wrote: Didn't you ask about the IMPACT on your spectators ?
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
Joe Mauro Inner circle 1133 Posts |
I agree with Mr. Seitz. I think Mr. Ammar's rutine is so magcial for the audience.
~Joe
|
|||||||||
TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
I use the Ammar routine quite often.
I would skip it if you're outdoors (windy) or if it is quite close quarters (very crowded cocktail party). That you get to hand out the silk and give the dollars to someone to hold as they pass thru has its benefits. That the silk is an attantion-getter due to it's size is also nice.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
|||||||||
Jordini Inner circle 2765 Posts |
I like CCC because it builds up and has a great finish. The first coin jumps off, the second coin MELTS off (my FAVORITE magic moment matched only by lethal tender) and then there's a short sequence of the coin jumping on and off the ribbon, and FINALLY it ends up in the spectators hand, which is what they truely don't believe. CCC is great for 1-10 people max, because of angles. Coins thru silk can play to an audience of 50 or more, if you do it right. If you want a great piece of magic for a parlor show, I would go with Ammar's coins through silk. If you want something really personal that's high impact, go with CCC.
|
|||||||||
Daegs Inner circle USA 4291 Posts |
While I'm not sure I recommend doing it(not for everyone), CCC can play for crowds of 20-40 if done with silver dollar sized coins and with clarity of motions.
|
|||||||||
JTW Special user Florida 670 Posts |
I agree with the Daegs. CCC (for me) gets a much better impact. I wouldn't do the two together for the same group because they are so similiar.
|
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
TBH, I'm in doubt, HOW similar they are...
Chinese coins with a hole on a string penetrate the ribbon.. Coins inside a silk penetrate the silk? At random, it looks like 2 penetrations but in visual effect to me it looks a bit different.. I mean, the Chinese coins are 'ribbed' of the ribbon and thrown again on it aso, whilst the Ammar thing is a clean penetration repeativly.. I would rather rate a borrowed ring off a string and the borrowed ring on wand for similar effects, as here the 'same' type of ring is used. In the Hooser thingy Chinese Coins are used and a ribbon. In the Ammar routine a *se-through* silk is used and large coins.. I think both effects could be done in the same show, as alone the difference of the type of coins make a *difference*.. I might be wrong though, admitted...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
JTW Special user Florida 670 Posts |
The reason I feel that they are similiar is because of my changes to the handling of CCC. THe effect more closely resembles Coins thru Silk than the original. I will admit that I too could be wrong in my assumption an audience would find them similiar. However the one source I use (my better half) to test routines on remarked after seeing My handling on Coins thru asked "Don't you already do (a trick) one like that? The one with the ribbon?" She may be too familiar as well. She already uses words like "flash" and "produce"!
Cheers, JTW |
|||||||||
Adam Keisner Veteran user London 335 Posts |
This is exactly why I posed this question JTW. After performing CCC on one party of people and later being asked to do it again by one person from that same group but for different people, the same person commented when after I'd done coins thru silk If I'd mind doing the 'first one again'. Later on in the evening I got chatting to this person, a very cute girl who as it turned out happened to have a Dad who had always been bang in to magic, anyway she just got me thinking about the whole premise of a coin thru fabric effect.
|
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Adam, in both cases, yours and JTWs, the reaction you got, where NOT from 'normal' ppl
Both where already 'influenced' by magic, so I don't know if one can rate their judgement the same way as to rate it, when it comes from innocent specs.. Maybe one should do both routines for some time for 'innocent' specs and then rejudge, even ask them what they liked the most..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
Vraagaard Inner circle Copenhagen, Denmark 1479 Posts |
So we are at it again. It all depends of who is performing the effect how good it is. Its two top effects with a lot of qualities.
CCC is a wonderfull close up piece of magic. I normally skip the part with the coin being thrown on the string. Now I really love after the first penetration when I say "You did examine the coins right?? But did you examine the holes??" It always gives a great laugh and it makes it so easy to prepare for the second coin. Also the ending where the coin(s) ends up in the spectators hands - its like a coins across from a coin on a string to the spectators hand. Beautifull. As for the final penetration - there is such a big misdirection that you can easily get rid of "your dirty hands content" to end clean. Granted Ammars effect can play for a bigger audience, and has a lot of the same qualities, and even though it seems invented for magicians - the lay persons buy's in to the story about the see through silk. Very visual effect. In the beginning I didn't like it because it seem to easy to perform - so I had a hard time believing it could really play - but it does - simplicity rules. There is however slightly more spectator interaction in CCC both regarding penetration 1,2 and the final penetration. Both effects are great and its only personal preference and presentation that will dictate which one is better. As such, both effects can be performed with really great success. Adam, Why not rehearse them both. Actually these two effect are quite easy to master, it's a mong the easiest coin effects you can perform. There is very few and simple technical moves to master, meaning you can focus on presentation/misdirection. As for expansion of texture. Well Dai Vernon, what can you say - just another master piece - less visual that the other two but that is how it was designed to be - however a lot of mystery with a lot of spectator interaction. Jan |
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Expansion of Texture is IMHO one of the most underrated routines.
Most ppl don't know, that even Francis Carlyle did do it, and he only did POWERFULL magic! Vraagaard, just one comment re *Expansion of Texture* as you mentioned Dai Vernon.. As you now doubt know, *Expansion of Texture* isn't Dai Vernon's *routine* it is much, much older.. Also the version described in the Dai Vernon book of Magic is (IIRC) a more restricted version.. It is also described f.ex. in Francis Carlyles book.. The one though who opend my eyes re this routine, how well it plays, was DKs Joachim Solberg, way back in around 1984.. He performed the routine for me and it was a flawless piece of magic. The *extended* versions effect/handling is as follows and it's the version I like the best..: A Copper and a Silvercoin is displayed, as well as a handkerchief. Both coins are placed inside the hanky, the specs holds the gathered ends. Spec is given a totally free choice re which coin should penetrate the hanky. Let's say he does choose the silver one in this example. That choosen silver coin is extracted right through the middle of the hanky and displayed. Whilst the spec still holds the gathered corners of the hanky, *What if you had choosen the other coin?*, and now the outside silver coin is pushed inside the middle of the hanky, whilst the other coppercoin coin is extracted and displayed. Now for the first time the spec himself opens/unfolds the hanky and shows/verifies that the only coin inside is the silvercoin. Now the coppercoin soley and visibly is placed inside the hanky and the spec again holds the gathered corners, and with his other hand, through the hanky, also the coppercoin placed inside . The magi picks up the silvercoin, it vanishes during a throwing motion towards the hanky, the spec releases the hold on the inside coppercoin, now soley holding the gathered 4 corners in one hand. Whilst he does so, a 'clink' is heared. When the spec himself opens the hanky, it contains both the copper AND the silvercoin.. The above is the handling/effect that I rate to be 'the best'. The version described in the DV book is IMHO overlooked by most, the version in the Carlyle book seems to be read by more fellow magicians.. Can't reacll if any of the above books explain the routine as mentioned above, but I think the Carlyle version does.. In any case, the technical handling of this routine can be varied quite a lot and can be very deceptive.. I would suggest, NOT to use a normal pocket handkerchief - which does take if off the real impromptu level - that is rather stiff, but a silk made of 'heavy' silkmaterial, a rather large one, at least 18 inches square, and NOT a white one, but f.ex. a red/burgundy one. Al Schneider has an easy and simplified handling -not with all the above mentioned variations- on one of his DVDs (his first one) and he has a nice touch re the handling, or rather 2 nice touches, one is the 'twisting' of the hanky out of the specs hand, the other is the idea of Pete Biro re 'loading' a coin safely, and there actually is a third good touch, the *level*/'hold it at level' tip..great work! I always liked *Expansion of Texture* done the way I described above, maybe good, not to many do it ?
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
Vraagaard Inner circle Copenhagen, Denmark 1479 Posts |
Dear Werner,
As always, thanks for a thorough description. I Just ordered The Al Schneider DVD's and I have the Dai Vernon description. Will try and track the Carlyle version (got his mentalism DVD) but I wonder what book it is in. I normally meets Joachim Solbjerg in the Danish/Copenhagen Magic circle so I will ask him for some fine points next time I see him. Or rather I will show him my version, and ask him to show me some twist and turns. Speaking of Joachim. By the way Joachim Solbergs version of "The Proffessors Rope Symphony" is a reall killer too - I have entertained close up and on stage with his version and it's marvellous. People actually ask's to see it again next time around - it's a routine people are talking about. Further a "Close-Up Ring and Rope Routine by El Duco" which is performed by Joachim Solberg has just been released on hocus-pocus.com. Comes with rope, ring and DVD. Haven't heard any reviews, but if it's Joachim performing, he most likely researched all rope and ring routines avaiable before performing this one. So I guess its a great one. Thanks for your kind advice |
|||||||||
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Vraagaard, the *Carlyle* I was talking about, ISN'T *the* Carlyle having put out that DVD!!!
I'm taling about Francis Carlyle and his book published by a student of his, Roger Pierre : The Magic of Francis Carlyle..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
|||||||||
Vraagaard Inner circle Copenhagen, Denmark 1479 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-07-07 03:37, Werner G. Seitz wrote: Thanks, I was wondering about the Carlyle DVD. He didn't struck me as a magician even though he has the same name. Thanks, I'll start searching for the book. |
|||||||||
Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
Here are some additional thoughts.
I was thinking that I use halves most of the time because they are bigger and show well. Howver, for the everyday kind of magic they are somewhat odd. This suggests that one should use quarters. They are, however, small. So I had the thought of using several quarters instead of a half. I thought of going over all my stuff and switching to quarters instead of single halves. The first one I considered was expansion of texture. It could work out quite well. The halves are replaced with stacks of quarters. Put a nickel in the middle of the hank for them to hold. During the Pete Biro load sequence, load a stack into the hank. Since during the move you drop the coins directly onto your hand, they can be kept quiet. Then since you twist the hank, you can wrap the coins tightly to continue to keep them quiet. Then vanish a stack with a multiple coin vanish. The Schneider Vanish actually works well for this. Just cup your hand a bit separating the coins and when you put your thumb on them the action squares them and makes a nice rattle for the vanish. Continue on. Twist the single coin from their hand and the quarters jump into the hank. I haven't worked out all the details yet. This is one of my latest thoughts. Should be a real killer. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » A Charming Chinese Challenge vs. Coin Thru Silk (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.05 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |