We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Inaccurate advertising of Cellular Mitosis (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
Greg Owen
View Profile
Special user
623 Posts

Profile of Greg Owen
Not trying to pick to the method, but can any phone be used?

- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
Jheff
View Profile
V.I.P.
395 Posts

Profile of Jheff
FIB:
As a knowledgeable mentalist, there are many many new effects in which the method is obvious to me before I read the manuscript or check out the product. Does that mean that the method is transparent? Sure, but only to an experienced mentalist. How many experienced mentalists do you do your paid performances for? Not many, if you're like most.

The point is that it's not transparent to laymen. Just because it doesn't fool you, or you were clever enough to figure it out, doesn't mean that your audience will. And that's really the whole heart to Cellular Mitosis.

As to adding bonuses, I don't see the issue here. What's wrong with adding material? Richard Osterlind added bonuses in his Perfected Center Tear booklet as well as his Very Modern Mindreader booklet. Does that make those brilliant routines "transparent" as to their quality? And I myself added bonus variations to my effect in my Ultimental. Master marketers worldwide add bonuses to their material. It is both a kind gesture and a marketing ploy. It does not mean, and never will, that the material lacks quality. So I steadfastly disagree with your concern.

Greg:
You could use any phone, but there are restrictions. The best phone to use is your personal cellphone. You can't use anyone else's cellphone. You can use a regular phone, but if there's a re-dial feature you must quickly dial another number afterwards so that folks can't call the phoned person. And, without giving too much away, think about the old Mr. Wizard effect. It would be pretty much the same restrictions since, essentially, Cellular Mitosis is an updated version of Mr. Wizard (see Scarne on Card Tricks, if you're unfamiliar with it).

-- Jheff
Marketplace of the Mind THE LAZY MENTALIST'S CARD TRICK is now available!!
rumburak
View Profile
New user
83 Posts

Profile of rumburak
I would like to thank Jheff and everybody else who voiced his opinion on the effect. Your very detailed posts have given me a much clearer impression of how to judge it.

After following this thread I did get the impression that the routine is potentially good but requires a certain amount of experience on the side of the performer. Clearly, I have initially misjudged the effect based on the advertisement.

I still would like to address this concern further since it is obviously important to the marketing of any effect:

I am a potential customer. I have read the advertisement in the first post and found that the advertisement is totally misleading and hence the effect should be bad as well. This is not a logical conclusion, but just a fact - a bad advertisement has put me off a potentially useful thing.

Quote:
Rumburak:
You're right. A crucial piece of information is missing. It's called the secret. Does the blurb not make sense to you because you couldn't figure it out?


The description doesn't make sense because it is incomplete. It is not clear that the information is written down and/or recorded somewhere. It could use a) preshow work, b) stooges (somewhat excluded by the complete description posted later), c) open announcement or something different. It could be important to the effect or not.

So it is true - if I don't know what type of method is used and whether or not I am expected to be able to do X prior to working the effect (with X being anything from a classic card force to piloting an airplane) I cannot judge if this is for me or not.

Quote:
Regardless of why it didn't make sense to you, it's totally idiotic to think that a creator of a mentalism or magic effect must openly reveal the modus operandi in the advertising blurb.


If it doesn't at least reveal the skill level and prerequisites required then the advertisement is indeed misleading.

To give you an example of what I consider useful information and misleading advertisement consider these two blurbs for the same thing:

Misleading
The spectator freely selects any word from a book. The performer is able to name that word. No stooges or preshow work, no gimmicks. Three bonus routines included.

Useful
A new method for the surrounded center tear is being described and several routines - a book test and three other routines - are included.

I would suspect the first advertisement refers to a product which is a rip off while I would definitely consider the second one. Maybe that's just me and I am not a typical customer and magic dealers don't need people like me and I should just shut up. But that's the way I make my purchase decisions.

As far as the specific routine is concerned: I could emulate the effect using e.g. a method from Annemann's classic book. And I am a newbie and an amateur, not an experienced professional! Why should I care how somebody else works that thing if I could do it myself using a different method? If there is indeed a "cleaner" way to do it, THEN I may be interested.

So think about how you could best convince me to shell out my money - giving a vague description of a result that even a stupid amateur can emulate? Probably not ...
Jheff
View Profile
V.I.P.
395 Posts

Profile of Jheff
Rumburak:
Maybe this will surprise you, but I really don't want to convince you to buy anything. I may sell mentalism products, but I'm a high school teacher by day and a performer in my off hours (I'm on summer break right now so I have time to address this thread). If you feel CM isn't right for you, then so be it.

However, advertising is designed to get you to purchase the item. If the item is good, then you will be pleased and recommend it. If you are unsure of that, then it's up to the individual consumer to seek out info about the product or service. When I have doubts, I consult friends or other trusted resources to find out info. For instance, when a movie is released, I'll often consult critics I respect to determine if I should plunk down $10 at a theater or wait a few months and pay $2 to rent it. In magic or mentalism, I'll ask friends or consult forums like this one.

This is one of the reasons I created my website. I won't reveal methods (though I will make references) and I will reveal if there's anything necessary to the effect that ad isn't saying, such as sleights (like Room 101), chemicals (such as Raven's Slates), or magnets. I do try to honestly and objectively reflect on the truthfulness of the ad. And give my comments on it from the perspective of a mentalist.

With Docc's ads, he definitely overdoes it with his lists of features. And I've caught him being misleading in a couple of his products' lists. But he always delivers a solid routine that's been performed and that the details have been worked out. CM is no exception. The ad seems misleading, but it's not. If you owned a copy, you'd be able to see that.

As to the skill level, it requires a very bold acting maneuver and a basic move which cam be altered based on your experience and resources. The former requires a strong performing ability which is a quality that every successful mentalist should have and is arguably a difficult skill to master. The latter should be quite easy for anyone.

But, as I said, I'm not going to convince you to buy it. You should know what you need or not need. You raise the fact that you could come up with your own version. Let me encourage you to do so. Many of mentalism and magic's greatest effects were created by people who were trying to copy ones they have seen or read about. I sincerely wish you the very best of luck doing so and I'm sure Docc Hilford would love to see your result if you succeed. If you find yourself in a state of frustration though, know that $40 will end it.
Marketplace of the Mind THE LAZY MENTALIST'S CARD TRICK is now available!!
rumburak
View Profile
New user
83 Posts

Profile of rumburak
Jheff, thank you very much for your detailed posts. What you wrote is essentially what I would have loved to read in the original advertisement.

The major point of my criticism was about the advertisement, not the effect itself. However, a bad advertisement does eventually reflect on the routine since subconsciously I expect somebody who is able to write a decent routine to also be able to write a useful advertisement. This is not fair, but at least for me a common shortcut to judging whether I should put a product on my watchlist or not.

Had you written that advertisement most if not all criticism would have been mute.

Quote:
However, advertising is designed to get you to purchase the item.


As I have explained, this design goal was clearly missed by the original advertisement. I was totally driven away instead of intrigued. Maybe other people reacted differently and maybe these types of ads generate higher revenues than decent ones. But as the first poster shows it is not a way to keep customers satisfied.

I would strongly suggest Docc Hilford gets somebody like you for his next campaign Smile
Jheff
View Profile
V.I.P.
395 Posts

Profile of Jheff
Rumburak,

The original poster claimed the ad was inaccurate. His claims are untrue. They may mislead one to construe incorrect facts, but that hardly makes the advertising inaccurate. Had he titled this thread "Misleading Advertising of Cellular Mitosis" then I wouldn't have had much to disagree with.

And, yeah, some people don't like that style of advertising. You're not the first or last who will be turned off by Docc's verbose pitches. But if you want good material, then you must do what many others do in regards to Docc's material and that is to simply ignore his lists and focus on whether the effect is something for you or not. You will get quality products.

-- Jheff

P.S. Honestly, I have more fun commenting on Docc's ads for his wonderful products than wanting to write the ads for them. But thanks for the thought.
Marketplace of the Mind THE LAZY MENTALIST'S CARD TRICK is now available!!
fib
View Profile
Inner circle
1535 Posts

Profile of fib
My last comment: and thank you all for your patience.
I genuinely consider the folks who write here part of a fascinating sub-culture, even a community. I have been performing for quite a number of years and I use my postings to get feedback from the community. I have given some of my material away at the Café. Then, there are the elites. And they are, indeed, the great thinkers and performers of the business. But even the elites -- like all of us -- grow bereft of new, original, great ideas and methods -- and STILL some charge too much. Still use their names as a guarantee of quality, even when it doesn't exist. Many of us here believe them because we hold onto this shared notion of community. For some, that sort of sentiment seems to have gone away.
fib
Kevvy
View Profile
Special user
702 Posts

Profile of Kevvy
Quote:
On 2005-07-06 11:31, fib wrote:
And leave Jay Sankey alone. What was that all about?

Actually, some of Sankey's mentalism/mental magic effects are good. Especially his card effects.

I don't have any of Docc's material. I like cell phone effects, so I may take a chance with this one.
NJJ
View Profile
Inner circle
6439 Posts

Profile of NJJ
Re: Bonus Effects - When I bought my car, they threw in a CD player to clinch the deal. Does that my car is no good?

Re: Advertising with lists - A list is an editorial method to make the information easier to read. It answers questions people might have.

Re: new vs. old - Who cares if the method is new or old? I would handsomely for a good presentation of a rough and smooth deck so long as its not a stolen idea. Is this a stolen idea idea?

re: Style of advertising - If the STYLE of the ad is annoying then you should know that by reading it. If the

What EXACTLY is misleading about this ad? You say its the fact you can't SEE the person on the other end, which we've already established, is a stupid thing to expect. So what's your REAL problem?

Perhaps you might just be disappointed that the effect uses a) a new use for an old method you could have thought of yourself (but didn't) b) won't fool your magic buddies down at the club or c) just requires an little effort towards presentation and maybe even, GASP, hard work?

I'm sure if you email Hank Lee with your complaint he will deal with it.
ElliottB
View Profile
Inner circle
3207 Posts

Profile of ElliottB
Jheff,

Thank you for the information and also for all the excellent reviews on your site. I think you effectively answered this question (when you said that there is no dual reality), but to be on the safe side . . .

Am I correct that this effect can be effectively performed for just one person?

Thanks,

Elliott
Slim King
View Profile
Eternal Order
Orlando
17684 Posts

Profile of Slim King
To me the LIST is a sales tactic to lull you into thinking this is something new, not what it really is. In a way it is just like magic trickery. SOOOO maybe these advertisers being Magicians, just can't help themselves...and perpetuate an illusion....but this time, the trick's on us!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Jheff
View Profile
V.I.P.
395 Posts

Profile of Jheff
Quote:
On 2005-07-06 21:14, ElliottB wrote:

Am I correct that this effect can be effectively performed for just one person?

Yes, it can.
Marketplace of the Mind THE LAZY MENTALIST'S CARD TRICK is now available!!
Xiqual
View Profile
Inner circle
Upper left quadrant
4934 Posts

Profile of Xiqual
Jheff is the best dealer on the web. He always gives straight reviews [without actually giving away the effect]

Cellular Mitosis is great in my opinion. Two things though, you need to be able to act a little AND you need to be able to afford a cell phone.

Fib, whenever your mom and dad give you the money to get a cell, try this effect out, it kills.

James
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
ElliottB
View Profile
Inner circle
3207 Posts

Profile of ElliottB
Quote:
On 2005-07-07 13:17, Jheff wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-06 21:14, ElliottB wrote:

Am I correct that this effect can be effectively performed for just one person?

Yes, it can.

Thank you very much.

Elliott
Greg Owen
View Profile
Special user
623 Posts

Profile of Greg Owen
But can it be performed BY only one person? The traditional Mr. Wizard cannot.

- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
rumburak
View Profile
New user
83 Posts

Profile of rumburak
Quote:
But can it be performed BY only one person? The traditional Mr. Wizard cannot.

The advertisement states that it can be done "impromptu". The "traditional" 2P methods cannot. Furthermore, it has been said that the person "can" be unknown to the audience, but also that "any" person can be called. Hence, an acquaintance can also be called should he happen to be on the selected page. That's just the contents of the advertisement blurb at least ...

I must admit that so far I have not been able to come up with a method that has such features - so this effect really seems to be far more intelligent than I had initially thought. I have been able to come up with a method that can be performed by one person, is semi-impromptu (requires a short set-up that is not apparent to the audience which has to be done once) and can be done even in the streets using a cell phone, possibly with speaker phone capability. However, my method allows for a rather limited selection of items only - like from a list or similar. It also doesn't allow the person on the phone to be debriefed after the effect - it has to be a stranger to everybody and this stranger must not be called back and debriefed. (Restrictions similar to an instant stooge effect.)
Greg Owen
View Profile
Special user
623 Posts

Profile of Greg Owen
I guess I am interested in the performance conditions required for the effect. Without knowing this, I cannot make an informed pruchase decision. If it can only be done when my confederate is waiting by the phone to answer, I need to know that. Doesn't mean its not killer and worth the effort, but I just like to know. Especially since "Impromptu" is claimed.

- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
gobeatty@yahoo.com
rumburak
View Profile
New user
83 Posts

Profile of rumburak
Quote:
If it can only be done when my confederate is waiting by the phone to answer, I need to know that. Doesn't mean its not killer and worth the effort, but I just like to know. Especially since "Impromptu" is claimed.

Neither a 2P effect nor a modification of it alone can fulfill the requirement that "anybody can be called". All these methods are only possible if the person on the line is a complete stranger.

The obvious modification which allows "the performer to leave the room while the prediction is made" can turn it into a one person effect, but violates the "close up" condition under which the performance can be made.

I did trust Jheff that the advertisement is "misleading, but not inaccurate". So the requirements "anybody can be called", "can be performed impromptu" and "close-up" should better be fulfilled.

There are effects which really deliver what they promise - like Banachek's PK Touches which literally and impressively does everything the advertisement claims. The idea and principle is so strong that I did not believe it possible before and I was positively surprised.

So I similarly expect CM to be more than just another routine (or even a reprint) of a 70-year old thing which do not fulfill the claimed properties.
Xiqual
View Profile
Inner circle
Upper left quadrant
4934 Posts

Profile of Xiqual
Quote:
On 2005-07-08 10:29, Greg Owen wrote:

I guess I am interested in the performance conditions required for the effect. Without knowing this, I cannot make an informed pruchase decision. If it can only be done when my confederate is waiting by the phone to answer, I need to know that. Doesn't mean its not killer and worth the effort, but I just like to know. Especially since "Impromptu" is claimed.

- Greg Owen

Greg,
This is specifically for cellphones. If you don't have a cellphone and your people don't have cellphones, don't buy this.
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
jo
View Profile
Regular user
177 Posts

Profile of jo
Mmmm, with all this talk about CM I have been able to devise a method that fits all the requirements of the ad. If it's THE method that Docc suggests then I agree it is bold, very clever, and definitely not for everyone. If it's NOT, then I have found another way and am willing to give this a try (just because it's that cheeky).
Although no method has been given, we run the risk once again of exposing a marketed effect through our comments and discussions. Perhaps we should stop before too much is said? (if it hasn't already?)

Fib, have you contacted Docc regarding all this? Surely that would solve any complaints, thereby leaving it to those who want this to get it and those who don't to leave it alone.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Inaccurate advertising of Cellular Mitosis (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.19 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL