The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Forces, to be or not to be. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

harishjose
View Profile
Special user
932 Posts

Profile of harishjose
Scenario One:
"Pick one with your right hand. Got one. Good. Now pick one with your left hand. Good now. Hand me one. OK, we will use the one you have in your hand. that's the one you selected."

Scenario Two:
"Choose any number from 1 to 6. You mean SIX. Lets spell SIX from this end. S... I... X... So you selected the Yellow."

Whats common with the above said two scenarios. Instead of the spectator selecting something, magician selects something. Name it Magician's or Mentalist's force, but it doesn't work this way. What I state here are my thoughts. I believe that we don't credit intelligence to the spectators as we should be. The process of selection should be straight. It shouldnt have more than one step. The reason this kind of trick used to work well.
1) It was'nt always that people were shown to mental magic or effects. There used to be only a small number of performers before. Now everybody can perform magic. And most of them do it the wrong way, exposing the method. People have seen the effects on TV, live , from friends etc. They have reached their own conclusions.
2) With each decade, people get more educated.
3) They don't want to spoil your fun and they go along for the ride. (Sadly you don't see such nice people all the time.)

I do feel that, with the spectators getting more wise, we should be more wiser. I would like some good thoughts here. Or you can blame my poor spectator handling and be happy about your method of forcing.

The different advancements I have seen are by Benachek(his thoughts are in his books), Finn (shown to be me by my friend) and many more which skips my mind right now. I havent detailed many other forces like PATEO or Star force or Matrix force. Another option might be to have multiple outs (which mentalists frown upon blaming it as magician's method).

-Harish
To believe is Magic.
Mishel
View Profile
New user
Israel
100 Posts

Profile of Mishel
I agree with you. People today are more educated.
Take for example Banachek's Ring of Truth. This is an effect that anyone who studied some logic course at any time will recognize. The first time I saw the presentation I immidiatly knew how it was done. Not because I have seen other effects like this one before (I haven't) but because I had a logic course in the University when I studied math.

Anyway, I tried it several times and everytime I did, the spectator had the same connection and they dissmissed the effect as logic.

Again, you could say that my choice of specrarors was wrong, or that we need to get starter.
Mishel.
Don't let the same dog bite you twice.
NJJ
View Profile
Inner circle
6439 Posts

Profile of NJJ
The second force is crap. Magicians only do it because it gets such great reactions when the person says four or three.

The first force is also crap....but that doesn't mean that ALL magician's forces are bad. They require

a) a REASON: You can justify the stages of a magician's choice by "making sure that every object gets a chance" or calling it a "process of elimination"

b) the illusion of free will: Allow the spectator to change their mind at any point. Don't remove the rejected objects from play. Simply "leave them on the table."

c) no chance of forecasting by the spectator: Don't TELL the spectator it is a choice then they won't try and figure out what is going on.

d) that the choice appears of no consequence: Don't make a big deal of it.

I do a silly bit of spoon to fork with three spoons and a fork hidden in my hand with the handles sticking out. I ask them to grip two handles tightly....the two handles that seem to be most solid.

If they grab the fork: I pull out the two spoons and sit them on the table. If they don't: I let go of those two and ask them bang them together to see if they are solid.

I then ask them which spoon do they think I would "struggle most with". If the point to the spoon I say "Take it out and see if you can do it....no? Looks like you made the right choice." If the point to the fork I say "Ok....i'm up for a challenge."

and then I 'bend' it into a fork after much theatre.

At no point do ask them to "select" a spoon. I ask them a question ABOUT the spoons.

Magician's choice should not be able to figured out by students of LOGIC but by students of THEATRE. It requires acting, bravodo and a strong ability to think on your feet.
Mishel
View Profile
New user
Israel
100 Posts

Profile of Mishel
The Logic part was reffered to Banachek's Ring of Truth. Not to the magician's choice. The magician's choice is great.

When an effect is built on something that the spectator has a good chance of knowing, the mystery is gone.
The magician's choice can be presented in a way that no one will know it is a magician's choice even if they know what a magician's choise is.

The magician's choise can be figured out if the spctator has a chance to see a lot of performances of the same trick. The logic behind Banachek's Ring of Truth can be figured out after seeing the effect only once.
Mishel.
Don't let the same dog bite you twice.
harishjose
View Profile
Special user
932 Posts

Profile of harishjose
Thank you for your posts. I guess my point was not very clear. I cant imagine the magician's choice to be a choice. Its indeed a force. Smile
Logically, say we are going from A to B. Why don't we do that? Instead of following a flowchart(A to A', If A not equal to A', GOTO B', ELSE GOTO B) etc. I prefer to have outs as compared to magician's force. Maybe its the group of people I hang around with. Benachek's readings have helped me a lot in this, especially when I want to force a card psychologically. I think it was Riggs who said that spectators like to choose rather than eliminate. Its so true.
A better option is " Are you sure, you want to take that. You know I don't want you to go home and think what would had happened if you chose the other one." Follow this path. Its time we rode on trails that are not rode upon. Increase the probability of choosing a particular one. This can be done either by placing it in a position favorable to the spectator as in a classic force or a table spread card force or by decreasing the probability of choosing other objects. This can be done on the following note: "Start from one end" or " Choose a number BETWEEN 1 & 10." and so forth.
Finn John had a great force where he forces the spectator to choose a spoon from a variety of house hold items. Take risk. Its worth it. Now when I do mental effects, I throw in Magicians choice and then I say " YOu know what on the other hand choose any you like". Coming back to my thinking, this avoids the spectator to NOT choose the one that was forced by the magicians force, getting me an inch closer to what I want. Smile Hope I was able to provoke some similar thoughts in you guys.
-Harish
To believe is Magic.
Mishel
View Profile
New user
Israel
100 Posts

Profile of Mishel
I know what you mean about the A to A' and A' to B and so on.
But as said before it all depends on the rational behind it in the presentation.
To me, if I can make each path seem as if that IS the only path, then the force is good enough. Of course using psychological touches to direct the choice to one I would prefer from the start is a great way to make sure you take the path you prefer.
Mishel.
Don't let the same dog bite you twice.
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
View Profile
Inner circle
SW Ohio, USA
1555 Posts

Profile of Dr_Stephen_Midnight
I do a Burger routine involving the magician's force, but it is well-calculated (as most of Eugene's effects are) and never fails to hit home.

I guess it's as much HOW you use it as it is USING it.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Forces, to be or not to be. (0 Likes)
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.12 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL