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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts 
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Which cold reading books are preferred by readers?
Why do some readers use cold reading to "spice up" the reading? Wouldn't the "genuine" divinatory method be more impressive? Would you agree that cold reading is a deception--a way of pretending to get information via paranormal means but actually doing it by fishing, etc.? |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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Quote:
Which cold reading books are preferred by readers? My belief is that anyone with a serious interest should read as much as they can on the subject so it's not a matter of which books are preferred - as to what are good or bad, that's a matter of personal preference. Quote:
Why do some readers use cold reading to "spice up" the reading? Well, one reason is to always have something to fall back on. I remember early on in my path as a reader, one psychic of 25 years experience chatting to me and saying "You should always have something to fall back on should a reading dry up". If you are at a fair doing a dozen or more readings in a row there's every possibility that you need something to fall back on. Quote:
Wouldn't the "genuine" divinatory method be more impressive? Yes it often is. And even more so mixed in with some cold reading. But having said that, it's not 100% and I don't know anybody who claims it to be so. Quote:
Would you agree that cold reading is a deception--a way of pretending to get information via paranormal means but actually doing it by fishing, etc.? I have, hand on my heart, never ever fished for information in 12 years of doing readings. It's never been my style and I've never felt comfortable with the notion. I see Cold Reading as a way of starting the reading - building rapport basically. These days, it's almost a case of using it to just warm up...after a couple of minutes the reading "proper" starts to flow. Of course, the big question is just because there is deception involved, does it mean it's wrong? If a client feels helped by a session with a reader, isn't that job done? Is it really anybody elses business? If you don't believe in a religion but a friend does AND you see that they have some kind of benefit from their belief - is it your business to burst their bubble? I think not. |
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Winnes Elite user 477 Posts
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I used to believe in Father Christmas, and was perfectly happy with that belief. Does that mean that nobody should have "burst my bubble" by telling me it wasnt true?
Anyways, doesn't Ian Rowland actively encourage readers of Full Facts to point people towards his book? |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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"Of course, the BIG question is just because there is deception involved, does it mean it's wrong? If a client feels helped by a session with a reader, isn't that job done? Is it REALLY anybody elses business?
If you don't believe in a religion but a friend does AND you see that they have some kind of benefit from their belief - is it your business to burst their bubble? I think not." No, it's not my business to dis people's religious beliefs; however, I do have a problem with the type of religious faith healers that Randi wrote a book about. And as I've said here before, in my opinion, it's false advertising to claim or imply supernatural powers if one doesn't really have them. If someone charges money for a "psychic" reading, and then uses cold reading to fake getting information psychically--I think that's unethical. If I was a psychic reader and had real psychic powers, I wouldn't touch cold reading. I'm not exactly against readers, but I am for truth in advertising. Is psychic reading about the placebo effect? Wouldn't it be better to be honest with the client? For those that want to read version 1.0 of this discussion: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;start=0 |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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"Anyways, doesn't Ian Rowland actively encourage readers of Full Facts to point people towards his book?"
I'm not sure, but why would that be surprising of any author? Again, 30 quid for a book is a lot of money for someone unless they have a specific and strong interest in the matter. Posted: Jul 25, 2005 1:31pm ----------------------------------------------- Quote:
And as I've said here before, in my opinion, it's false advertising to claim or imply supernatural powers if one doesn't really have them. If someone charges money for a "psychic" reading, and then uses cold reading to fake getting information psychically--I think that's unethical. If I was a psychic reader and had real psychic powers, I wouldn't touch cold reading. I'm not exactly against readers, but I am for truth in advertising. You really need to look around - there are so very many ways to get around what you claim. Most people actively using Cold Reading tend to shy away from claiming outright to be a "psychic". And even if they did, so what? Technically, everyone is psychic! |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, anyone who charges money for a service ought to be honest about what they are providing. If a reader is basically offering counseling or talk therapy or giving advice--that's perfectly fine, but call it what it is, not "psychic readings". If there is an implication that the reader can foretell the future, or read minds, and they use deceptive techniques like cold reading instead of actual telepathy, and they charge money for it--in my opinion that's unethical.
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4698 Posts
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Bartle makes some very good points, and I find I'm basically in agreement with him.
Let me echo Bartle's observations with the following: "Cold reading" as most debunkers define it, is not a method, but rather a technique that is used by Professional Readers to enhance a divinatory reading. It helps the querent to quickly sift through the information provided by the oracle and find out how it applies directly to their lives. Certainly, one could theoretically could do an entire reading based on "cold reading" techniques, but it wouldn't be very good. "Cold reading" as originally defined by readers, simply meant a reading that was done completely "cold," e.g. without any prior knowledge of the querent. But over the years the term has been corrupted by the debunkers as an attempt to explain away everything that a reader does in one fell swoop. But the Professionals just laugh and smile, and go on with their craft.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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There seems to be a misunderstanding on the definition of cold reading. I was under the impression that it meant using techniques like fishing and basically having the readee reveal information, and then the reader pretends that he or she received that information psychically.
Philemon: you're saying that cold reading also means simply doing a reading with no prior knowledge of the subject? Perhaps this is causing confusion in this discussion. |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts
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Phil
I don't see any professionals on here " laughing and smiling and getting on with their craft" on the contrary they seem to be getting quite upset by it all and trying to justify themselves. As far as I can see, all you need do to be "psychic" and give a reading is a) tell them nice things about their personality. b) chuck in a few statements that apply to anyone c) give a few personal traits and then say "on the other hand" or "at times" and state exactly the opposite trait, Finally, say "That'll be £50 please, thank you very much..Next" Howard |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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Phil:
You may want to add your viewpoint to the cold reading on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading So far it mainly covers the skeptical viewpoint. A blast from the past: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;start=0 |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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"Phil
I don't see any professionals on here " laughing and smiling and getting on with their craft" on the contrary they seem to be getting quite upset by it all and trying to justify themselves. " Philemon can more than answer for himself but the "professionals" to which he refers are hardly likely to lurk on a magic forum open to just about anybody. Quote:
As far as I can see, all you need do to be "psychic" and give a reading is Which only goes to show your lack of knowledge on the matter so perhaps you'll leave the debate to those that have it rather than those who have read Ian's book (have you read any other book on the subject Howard?) and think they know it all? |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts
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Dave...only "The Complete Idiots Guide to Tarot Reading and Fortune Telling" and Richard Websters "Palm Reading for Beginners." Together with with Ians excellent work and references on the web that's all I need to know to understand what "Psychics" are about. Now it's me that, "just laughs and smiles and lets them get on with their craft."
Howard |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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On 2005-07-25 14:44, hkwiles wrote: Really? Why do you take any opportunity to snipe at psychics if you are happy to smile and let them get on with their craft? The only excellence in Ian's book is the fact that he has convinced so many people that he is an expert in something he has never actually done for real. Quote:
Which cold reading books do you prefer? Also, how do you define cold reading? All of Webster's books are excellent, as is Brad Henderson's The Dance. As for how I define it - Philemon did a much better job than I could. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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Bartlewizard:
When you were talking about using cold reading techniques to "spice up" a reading, what were you referring to? I thought Phil defined cold reading as simply doing a reading "without prior knowledge of the querent". |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts
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Dave..I don't "snipe at psychics" only those who pretend to be psychic.
As for Ian not doing it for real..he has appeared on TV shows and convinced people he was doing it for real using his methods. I can't beleive how easy it is to wind people up on this subject, IMO, there is no such thing as being psychic, you'll be telling me that its possible to bend spoons with the mind next..don't bother I've got Banacheks PK Silverware..I just laugh and smile and let them get on with there craft as well. I just got Ians Lecture Notes..there are some excellent routines in there if you want to pretend you are a mind reader and spoon bender. Howard |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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Actually he said:
Quote:
Cold reading" as most debunkers define it, is not a method, but rather a technique that is used by Professional Readers to enhance a divinatory reading. It helps the querent to quickly sift through the information provided by the oracle and find out how it applies directly to their lives. and that: Quote:
Cold reading" as originally defined by readers, simply meant a reading that was done completely "cold," e.g. without any prior knowledge of the querent. My spicing up a reading refers to the first part of Philemon's definition. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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What is this technique used to enhance a reading, if not fishing?
My intention is to have a discourse and to learn. |
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Reuben Dunn Inner circle Has a purple ribbon wraped around my 1592 Posts
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On 2005-07-18 03:45, Bambaladam wrote: I'd be interested in a few examples of this "hateful and demeaning statements" that you are referring to. |
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David Numen Inner circle 2077 Posts
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Dave..I don't "snipe at psychics" only those who pretend to be psychic. Ok, you snipe at those who pretend to be psychic in your world view. Quote:
As for Ian not doing it for real...he has appeared on TV shows and convinced people he was doing it for real using his methods. Read between the lines. He tended to be doing readings for people who were neutral on the subject. Had he been doing readings for people who knew something about the subject he would have had less success. In the one instance I recall where he did a reading for someone into astrology, it would seem she would have believed a reading based on anything so that's hardly conclusive. He has certainly, to my knowledge, NEVER worked as a real world psychic, unlike Richard Webster and many of the other authors. Bob Cassidy has a wonderful book on Cold Reading which busts some of the myths touted by skeptics, including Rowland. Why don't you do him a favour (his wife has been quite ill and he needs the money) and buy his book and you MIGHT actually learn something significant about Cold Reading. Quote:
I can't beleive how easy it is to wind people up on this subject, IMO there is no such thing as being psychic, you'll be telling me that its possible to bend spoons with the mind next..don't bother I've got Banacheks PK Silverware..I just laugh and smile and let them get on with there craft as well. The subject is not what is winding me up, but that some people who think they know it all are! You've read a few basic books on the subject and think you know it all! It's your inability to accept that there might just be something outside your comprehension or knowledge that doesn't so much wind me up but almost feel sorry for you. I follow something I read in a Michael Bentine interview years ago - keep my mind and my bowels open! |
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hkwiles Special user Howard Wiles 797 Posts
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Why would I want to read about all the intricasies of cold reading? I don't want to be able to do it I just like to know how things are accomplished. Ians book tells you how its done, Brads tells you how to do it successfully, as does Ron Martins Tarot readers Notebook.
Whats a "real world psychic"..If there was one, you wouldn't need books to tell you how to become one. Howard |
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Posted: Jul 25, 2005 07:33 am 
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