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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 10:19, Mb217 wrote:...Most folks think they have discovered something their very own, before thinking that it might be part of or indeed pretty much all of something ... There is a joy in discovery, that moment of "ah ha!", and it's something many of us in the arts and sciences wish for the reader... a joy to be shared. One way to share that joy is to provide instruction in principles and use only the simplest and most elegant example to demonstrate each principle. The intent is to permit the student one guided tour of the idea and then to let the student apply the idea as they see fit or to problems that have proven soluable using the ideas provided earlier. The ideas presented and the context in which they are presented implicitly contain all the combinations. Exploring those combinations is student level homework, meant to be enjoyed. This exploration provides the student with knowledge from experience inside a well structured universe of discourse. The student who continues their studies is expected to apply that knowledge to all further activities. A sleight learned with playing cards, say a false count, is implicitly applicable to non-playing cardlike items such as bills, business cards, postcards, photographs... as circumstances permit. A false transfer is likewise applicable to all items which may be handled as per the procedure learned. Only a cruel pedant would clutter the student's education with names of other students who insisted on publishing their homework and demanding recognition for mere diligence. In conjuring we have journals for interesting findings, both minor and on occasionally significant or historical items. We also have an underground where those who wish to investigate a discovery can seek both the context for the work and if it is in fact novel, recognition for the work. In direct response to the question of why so-and-so did such-and-such and why they might believe something... how about we take the optimistic route and posit that their mentors were unavailable the day some egotistical impulses got the better of them. The 1980s and 1990s were a busy time in publishing and the terms "totally out of control" and "unexplainable acts" seem rather appropriate to some of what happened back then. Regardless of the mistakes of the past, those who cite the mistakes and those who continue to publish mistakes, what matters is how we move forward. We cannot build upon a foundation of ego and shoddy scholarship. David Roth, Wesley James, Sol Stone and other magicians who are more concerned about magic than inflating their egos are available to discuss items and offer good advice. A suggestion about things submitted for publication: Be prepared to cite your sources, motivations and intentions when developing the work. When folks know what you worked from, what you were trying to do and why you did what you did, it's much easier to discuss the work you've done, and put it in context of what we have in our literature/history.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Thanks JT, that's quite an explanation. I really wouldn't expect anything less from you. It seems that a lot of coin guys are not about the scholarship of all this and indeed are better with their coins than with a pen & pencil. I would even say that what they like to do really is to just do the tricks, not diagram and illustrate them, or create a table of contents for what they have done or what they understand and how they came to understand it. When a person finds money in the street, before they run off to ask who lost it, they usually quickly stuff it in their pockets before running off to spend it. Perhaps that's an adequate dynamic of this kind of matter. I would guess that there is little originality out there to be found amidst those using the fundamental sleights and escalating them into more complicated moves and routines - at the base, it is pretty much what it was, is it not?
Like Sylvester's Pitch, very creative move that he seemignly absolutely calls his own...maybe/probably so but I've heard others mention this sort of pitch before Sylvester called it his own. And hard to believe, but they even said the guy that started doing it first did it even better. Can't imagine anyone doing it better or more creatively than Dan Sylvester, but perhaps even that is just a matter of perspective...most things are. And thanks for your's.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
Long ago I mentioned to Danny that there are similarities between his move and a published Dingle idea and he told me that he was unaware of the Dingle idea but that a couple of other magicians made the same comment to him. I truly believe that it was a case of independent invention and there's no question in my mind that he's taken the idea to incredible new heights. Whether or not he adequately researched the matter isn't for me to say. Sorry for getting off the primary topic but since the Pitch was mentioned...
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 12:24, Mb217 wrote:...they usually quickly stuff it in their pockets before running off to spend it. Perhaps that's an adequate dynamic of this kind of matter. I would guess that there is little originality out there to be found [among] those using the fundamental sleights and escalating them into more complicated moves and routines - at the base, it is pretty much what it was... Such is what is expected of the student in our craft; that they pick up what they find attractive and use it to make routines that work for them. Wonderful routines can be built up from basic sleights and mechanics using the rest of what it takes including props, story, staging, choreography and performing skills. IMHO our literature probably does not need to record or recount the French Drop as performed under colored lights, where each color is given its own treatment and associated with a separate person and given a different name.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mystre71 Inner circle martinsburg west virginia 1693 Posts |
Pachin,
Some of Jonathan Townsend's routines are through out "Apocalypse" as he posted above the routine you want to look at is "Coin Go-Return." You will see what is now being called the "Flying shuttle" (I think what Harry said was Jonathan adds a touch here, that certainly heightens the illusion), also you'll find the ROV into EG. You can also find something of Jonathan's in "Coins on Edge" other than that I THINK Jonathan only other work was published (1982) in a privatetly distributed booklet (which I would love to get my fingers on ) titled "On Edge." Best, Joe
Walk around coin box work check it out here https://www.magicalmystries.com/products
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Joaquin,
I'm sorry if I was not clear enough. I'm not saying anything about anyone taking this move and putting their own name on it. I will say that the written record suggests independent re-invention is likely. The concept of imparting some sort of motion to the incoming coin is emphasized in Richard Kaufman's original description of the shuttle pass in Coinmagic (1981) There, the coin is tosse to the fingertips from the classic palm. It's not surprising that other people found other ways to impart that motion. Danny Korem published his "Jumping Shuttle" in 1985, Larry Jennings' "LJ Toss" was published in 1986, and much later, Jay Sankey's "Aerial Shuttle" appeared in 1990. (although Kaufman says that Jay developed the move in 1982, but like I said, we're sticking to the written record) What is surprising is that at the same time, the inventor of the move published a variant handling where the incoming coin starts in fingertip rest, and just stays there. No tossing or "flying" at all. Kaufman's description in "Expert Coin Magic" (1985) makes no mention of the "movement" idea, and explains that the earlier description is David Roth's handling of the move when the incoming coin happens to already be in CP, and the later description is the way he does it when the coin is in FTR. The "imparted movement" idea is ultimately passed off as no big deal. This is an odd position to take, since it is obviously a simple thing to transfer a coin from FTR to CP. And if the "imparted movement" was still as important as it was in 1981, then why not just move the coin in FTR to CP, and do the move as already described? Whatever the reason, it is clear that the whole "imparted motion" idea was more or less abandoned by David Roth by 1985. It is also clear that several people from several different places have all decided to publish alternative handlings. The Jennings book even has an "oops" statement citing to the Korem book. I haven't mentioned Jonathan's handling (it's "J. Townsend" you're talking about, I assume, not Johnny Thompson) because a) it would be presumptious of me to do so, since he's clearly here in person, and b) I don't have the date of the publication of "Coin Go Return" available at the moment. More a) than b).
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The item "Coin Go-Return" hit print in May of 1984.
David lectured on the shuttle pass in 76 and used it from FP to fingertips where the receiving hand's thumb grips the coin, more of a ginger turnover than a drop and not at all a toss. We did get to see his jumbo coin production and there was a hint of imparted momentum in his action, though no discussion of the implications. At the time folks were also playing with the HPC concept and the item in Apocalypse with the jumbo coin was typical of its time. Folks also played with the floperino change and a HPC drop of the coin. A fun time. I would have to check with Wesley about exactly what Presto was doing that inspired all this fun. Odd how folks have not seemed to explore combining the Jennings HPC ending of the coins across with a jumbo coin production. So many fun things to try. BTW, I was NOT aware of David's shelled coins across routine when I gave Harry my gaffed coins through the table. I of course defer credit on the idea to David and claim only independent discover and some pride in it's "hand's off tabled" aesthetic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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