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Socrates
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Greetings Magic Café,

Hypnosis has been of great interest to me for a number of years now and I’ve managed to collect a few books over the years on this subject.

Whilst I’d really like to use the art of hypnosis in conjunction with mentalism, I’m also extremely interested in using it to help others to break unhelpful patterns of behavior and overcome fears etc.

What I’d like to know is this, what would be the best way to practice learning the art of hypnosis and are there any excellent books out there that I should acquire?

So if any of you experienced hypnotists/mentalists out there can think of any useful advice to share, then feel free to put your fingers to work on your keyboard and send a reply that will help me on my quest to learning the art of hypnosis more efficiently, thanks.

I look forward to hearing from you all.

Take it easy

Socrates

‘Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought’ - Baslo
Smile
Mark Hogan
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Hi Socrates
I've got some NLP and Hypnosis stuff for sale, in the lets make a magic deal section if you are interested Smile

Mark
Thoughtreader
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You said that "... I'm also extremely interested in using it to help others to break unhelpful patterns of behavior and overcome fears etc...."

If you are serious about wanting to help people through hypnosis, you MUST go to school to do this. You are talking about hypnotherapy and if you truly want to be a therapist, you MUST get the proper training. Taking a weekend course in hypnosis where you hand them a fat cheque and they hand you a diploma at the end is NOT the route to take unless you have a strong desire to become a hypnokook. If you truly believe that you can make someone stop smoking after a session (or a weekend session) then you have a very poor idea of what hypnosis really is.

I can think of no better person for you to ask about actual therapy than one of the leading hypnotherapists in the United States who also just happens to be the world's leading authority on peeks. I would highly suggest that if you are sincere about this endeavor, you private message Mr. Busch on here and perhaps he could help you to head in the proper course on a road to helping people. (After all, if you want to truly help people, then I am sure you want to put the best possible effort into it.)

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
Canada's Leading Mentalist
http://www.mindguy.com
AB StageCraft
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AllThumbs
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Well put Paul. There is no point doing anything halfway. It is especially important if your goal is to help people.

Regards,

Kris Sheglova.
The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe
Peter695
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Well, this could be a long one.

If you want to limit your practice of helping people to, smoking cessation and phobia erradication, that's one thing. If you want to go beyond that into "breaking unhelpful patterns of behavior", that could be quite another.

Two names for training come to mind off the top of my head. Visit Jerry Kien or Kevin Hogan. I'm sure the National Guild would give each of them a glowing reference, but ask them yourself at http://www.ngh.net

Once you're sufficiently confused, post again. Take your time deciding. Some people spend lots of money to get certified. They think they are going to make substantial amounts of money by inserting a yellow pages ad into their local directory. Maybe.

I start an advanced certification tomorrow morning. I know exactly how, when, where and why it fits into my marketing plan.

Now close your eyes if you will and place your attention on your eye-lids for a moment. Imagine you've just gotten certified, rented an office and fill in the rest of the story...

The other side of the same coin is that if you just want to get certified for your own edification, I say go for it. Lots of people spend much more for flying lessons, owning horses and other expensive hobbies. I would just hate to see you go in with unrealistic expectations so, again, take your time.

Let me throw one more name your way: Geoffrey Ronning. Geoffrey Ronning is the best at marketing stage hypnosis and has just started teaching a certification curriculum which I know nothing about. I've purchased some of his products and had numerous, lengthy conversations with him and think he's a great guy.

I hope that's adequate information to give you a start.

Peter
Richard Busch
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I urge newbies NOT to take these certifications (unless they are an adjunct to something else in a *long chain of learning*). Hypnotherapy is not for newbies, at all. It's serious intervention, all of it, not some of it. Most "hypnotherapists" are script reading, tape selling well-meaning, good caring people. But they are WAY undertrained and naive for what they are undertaking. Hypnotherapy has just about been ruined by all the local yocals. Many of the certifications are worthless paper pushing money makers for the sellers. That's my professional opinion, as a professional Ericksonian hypnotherapist who realizes the field is in shambles and most of the hypnotists are naive kooks. Just a word to the wise. Hypnosis is not a weekend thing to do. Please don't do any of it, unless you have serious training. I even hope this thread goes away. Too much misinformation. Good luck!

PS - We don't use any scripts, sell tapes, or use those spinning wheels! Save your money.
Richard Busch
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<BR>RichardBusch@RichardBusch.com
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Peter695
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I'm sorry you hold those opinions, Mr. Busch.

With all due respect for your advanced knowledge, training and experience, I think the field does have some undertrained people who are active in it.

I would like to offer that the qualities you point to as peculiar to the hypnosis field extend to all fields. From law to medicine to education and beyond.


Peter
Dr Omni
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There have been several posts asking about how to learn hypnosis, so this is a copy-and-paste from my post to another such thread:

To really understand NLP, it's a good idea to read the works of its creators, Richard Bandler and John Grinder (who incidentally are no longer working together and have recently been involved in lawsuits with each other).

Their original book was "The Structure of Magic" (2 vols.), aimed at therapists and somewhat difficult reading.

More accessible is their "Frogs into Princes", a transcript of one of their workshops.

To study hypnosis from a show business persepctive, a good place to start is Ormond McGill, "New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" and Jerry Valley, "Inside Secrets of Professional Stage Hypnotism".

From a general and therapeutic point of view, the number of books is absolutely collosal. A fairly good introduction for those new to the subject is Paul McKenna, "The Hypnotic World of Paul McKenna", by Britain's leading stage hypnotist, who is also a therapist and trainer.

For the study of old-fashioned direct, authoritarian hypnosis (in a therapeutic context), I would recommend Dave Elman,
"Hypnotherapy", based on transcipts of his seminars for doctors and dentists, and Gil Boyne, "Transforming Therapy", which is mostly transcripts of actual one-to-one hypnotherapy sessions betwen the author and various clients.

Dr Milton Erickson was the father of the contemporary style of therapeutic hypnosis, which is based on indirect methods, tailored to the individual client. The best parts of NLP were derived from his work. Good introductions to Ericksonian hypnotherapy are Richard Bandler and John Grinder,
"Trance-formations", and Rubin Batttino and Tom South, "Ericksonian Approaches". Erickson's voluminous writings are assembled in "Collected Papers on Hypnosis" (4 vols.), edited by Ernest Rossi.

It also seems as if a new history of hypnosis, from Franz Anton Mesmer in the 18th century to the present, comes out practically every year. Having looked through most of them, it's difficult to single out one as being better than the others. The most recent, "Hidden Depths" (2002) is by Robin Waterfield, who was advised on stage hypnosis by my sometime co-perfomer and good friend Ron Alexander ("Sleepy Sam").

If I can just make a comment on the point raised by Richard Busch, yes - a part of me agrees that there are some *terrible* hypnosis trainings out there, and some even worse "hypnotherapists". This is true in the UK as well as in the US.

However, in my experience, these people don't last long in the field, either as trainers or hypnotherapists. I've heard that in the UK, at least 75% of the people who set themselves up as hypnotherapists are out of the field within one year. The people who are seriously dedicated to learning the craft - and continuously enhancing their knowledge of it - and who go the extra mile to do their best for their clients - will survive in the field (though even then, those of us who are working hypnotherapists don't exactly get rich from doing one-to-one hypnotherapy).

It's swings and roundabouts. To become a doctor of medicine, a psychologist, even a psychotherapist (as defined in US law or in the definition of the UK Council for Psychotherapy, which is not legally enforced) takes years of study, degrees, internships and so on. Not eveyone has the finances, time, academic bent or orientation to go through all that before helping people find solutions to their problems. Entertaining hypnotherapy *can* - when things go well - be a way of helping people much more quickly, and provides a route for good people to provide therapy who otherwise wouldn't be able to go through the degree courses, etc. Also, from my experience, there can be a tendency for people with PhDs, memberships of some elite body and so on, to be stuck in the model they have been taught, and sometimes to adopt a "superior" attitude to their clients. By contrast, as a general rule of thumb, I have found "lay" hypnotherapists to be a much more open-minded and diverse bunch of people, open to new and different ideas and with a much broader approach than the medical and psychological fraternities.

I think it's good that each person has a choice: if an individual has a problem, he or she can find the person who works best for him or her. The openness of the hypnotherapy field helps that choice.
Hypnotist and mentalist.
Websites: www.corporatemedservices.co.uk
www.doctoromni.com
Scarecrow
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As a student of behavioral science and REALITY, I'd like to reinforce Paul Alberstat's and Richard Busch's strongly expressed points on the absolute danger of peddling snake oil and operating technology you're not trained to use.
Try this: Think of how many people there are in the world who own and operate a vehicle. Now imagine a likely statistic of how many of those people "know" their vehicle. To help with this, remember all the cars you come in visual and audio contact with on a daily basis that squeek, squeel, pour out suffocating emissions, choke under their own running engine, and fail to light up properly. Triple A is not a multi-billion dollar company because they are lucky.

People tend to feel more important if they can be helpful in some way. Take me for instance, I feel better knowing I put my two cents in for what I believe to be a too commonly misused and abused skill (-as opposed to talent) There is actually a chemical in the brain that makes us do this.

Neuroscience has just recently become a popular field of study. You can't even rely on the knowledge formulated a year ago due to the constant advances made. And that's only the engine. By the time you consider the individual as an individual and multiply that by their surrounding environment, add the singular conditioning they grew up with and subtract what they may be hiding from you, you could very easily be stirring ingredients together that can blow your face off - not to mention the believing soul you just warped with your own ideals.

No human in their right mind will inflict harm on another individual, period. And it's up to education to break down the denial that can disprove that statement. And by denial, I mean the powerful state of believing in a false truth.

Utmost care is necessary in this field of control/manipulation. THERE IS NO QUICK FIX. Just a quick scam. And of course, assured entertainment.

Fairly opinionated this evening,
Kevin.
There's nothing I take more seriously than goofing off.
Millard123
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Serious researchers in the field of hypnosis are split about equally into two camps:

1) Those that think hypnosis can be dangerous when used by "lay" hypnotists. (A “lay” hypnotist is someone without an advanced degree in one of the mental health disciplines. They may or may not have training in hypnotherapy, but are still considered “lay” hypnotists unless degreed and licensed to practice mental health care.) This camp also believes that stage hypnosis should be illegal.

2) Those that think hypnosis is harmless no matter who uses it. This camp also believes TV shows and TV advertising is harmless.

My view is that both camps are wrong; hypnosis is safe and effective only when performed by someone that was trained by me. My training is the only training that is approved by me. At the present time I am the only graduate of my training course, so all hypnosis must be performed by me to be safe and effective.

Millard – The World’s Only Safe And Effective Hypnotist
Millard Longman

See all my products at:
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CENDRE
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Millard123! I hope you're joking!

I will take the role of the devil's advocate but I hope you're not doing like too many magicians do on this forum: a big self-promotion.

Sorry if I'm wrong but I think that sometimes this forum turns into a big commercial site... and I don't agree with that.

I will end this digression with just 1 comment:

IMHO too many magicians that are looking for "the perfect hypnosis training" haven't tried hypnosis.

Be careful! I'm not against training groups, but I'm just convinced that hypnosis basis must be tested with simple techniques before we know if we want to jump into "professional hypnosis".

And everybody here can easily find on the web common techniques to begin little hypnosis seances on their friends. It's important to test it.
The basis will let you understand if you CAN do hypnosis (IMO everybody can do hypnosis). But, most of all, these little experiments (how to test if someone has felt into the good state, the arm which rises, etc...) are harmless and can show you the limits of hypnosis.

You can have a lot of fun with simple techniques, and I'm sure you are no fool: You won't try to do techniques that are the job of hypnotherapists or psychologists.

So, I want only to say: Don't speak about hypnosis: TEST IT!

See you soon,
Il était une fois...

CENDRE
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Philemon Vanderbeck
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Quote:
On 2002-10-25 08:50, Millard123 wrote:
My view is that both camps are wrong; hypnosis is safe and effective only when performed by someone that was trained by me. My training is the only training that is approved by me. At the present time I am the only graduate of my training course, so all hypnosis must be performed by me to be safe and effective.


Hehe...

Sounds like Millard is channeling someone who shares his initials.

Smile
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
kermitthefrog
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The original question seemed to express an interest in both stage hypnosis and therapeutic hypnosis. I would be interested in hearing knowledgeable people discuss the relationship between these phenomena. Once upon a time I took one of those weekend courses on hypnosis; I concluded that I had learned just enough to get myself and others into trouble, and so have not pursued it much since then -- though it's intensely interesting stuff. But it made me wonder about stage hypnosis. I have seen some remarkable examples of it in venues large enough for the performer to find a number of highly suggestible people who he could cause to do all manner of extraordinary things on stage. Is this ethical? Is it potentially harmful? What are the outer limits of performance-enhancing hypnosis? I realize the last question may take us away from magic, so if people want to stay away from it that's fine with me. But I'd be interested in and grateful for comments on any of this from those who have had more experience than I have had.

Best,

KF
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One of Kermit's questions was "Is it ethical [to use hypnosis technology to make people do 'extraordinary things on stage']?"
Well, the ethics of performing fall into a basic rule: know your audience so that genuine entertainment can be given them. And as far as the hypnotized subject goes, well, a volunteer is a volunteer is a volunteer, and are subject to becoming a temporary fool for the sake of aforementioned rule.

Unless of course you are there to entertain yourself. Then you don't have to worry about a thing. As a matter of fact, you'll probably sleep better at night knowing you've been able to neutralize your anxiety for the show with apathy. This method is highly recommended by nine out of ten Ivy League doctors. The six o'clock news told me everything was okay. Even dying at war. I'm signing up first thing tomorrow. I'll miss you all!

Tie a yellow ribbon 'round an oak tree for me,
Kevin.
There's nothing I take more seriously than goofing off.
kermitthefrog
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I guess I was thinking about all the ethical hand-wringing that occurred about misuse or casual use of therapeutic hypnosis, and wondered whether it carried over to casual use of stage hypnosis to cause people to make fools out of themselves. If the former is harmful and unsafe, why not the latter? (Or if the latter is safe, why not also the former?)
Peter695
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Several 'notes':

Ethics are a process, not a protocol. The process has to do with holding people in high moral regard. "People" include; the hypnotist, the volunteer and the audience.

Hypnosis is potentially unsafe, I agree. May I know the name of someone who has been harmed by hypnosis, in the history of hypnosis.


Peter
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Ask any well experienced PSYCHIATRIST who has had to undo poor therapy sessions by an untrained or incompetent so called therapist. They cannot provide names for obvious reasons but they will provide you with many horror stores. Many of those so-called therapists work under the notion of hypnotherapy and those are the danger with hypnosis.
PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
Canada's Leading Mentalist
http://www.mindguy.com
AB StageCraft
http://www.mindguy.com/store
Peter695
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Thank you for your response, Thoughtreader.

I'm looking for statistical data.

Your statement about privacy is true, however I wouldn't expect a psychiatrist to know the statistics I'm after.

Anecdotal evidence may be valuable, but not to me in this instance.

I know a good number of stories about poor psychiatry, but that isn't valuable to me, either.

I can, with some research, provide quantifiable data with respect to malpractice, the rates of divorce, depression, suicide, drug addiction and alcoholism among psychiatrists.


Peter
Scarecrow
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Numbers are fundamental.
They'll give you face value.
Grant it though, it doesn't take much thought to understand.
It truly is within the stories that you'll find articulated trends.
Just gotta learn how to shut up and listen.

Burying a dead horse,
Kevin.
There's nothing I take more seriously than goofing off.
Dr Omni
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Kermit - In reference to your questions:

"But it made me wonder about stage hypnosis. I have seen some remarkable examples of it in venues large enough for the performer to find a number of highly suggestible people who he could cause to do all manner of extraordinary things on stage. Is this ethical?"

Yes, by any reasonable ethical standards. Each volunteer chooses of his or her own free will to go on stage and participate in the show. He or she is free to walk off stage at any time he or she chooses to do so. I have twice been a subject in a stage hypnosis show, and have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. I had more fun on stage as a volunteer than from watching any of the numerous stage hypnosis shows I've seen as a member of the audience.


"Is it potentially harmful?"

No. There has never been any scientific proof of any person being harmed by stage hypnosis (or, for that matter, from hypnotherapy).

"What are the outer limits of performance-enhancing hypnosis?"

Hypnosis deals with the subconscious part of the mind and its potentials. These potentials are extraordinary. Hypnosis, especially when tailored to the specific individual who is motivated to achieve his or her best, can unleash this potential. In theory, at least, there are many outer limits, short of what is physically possible for the human body by the laws of physics, chemistry and biology.
Hypnotist and mentalist.
Websites: www.corporatemedservices.co.uk
www.doctoromni.com
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