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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Ah, but you see, I wouldn't use the name of a lesser known magician. If I did, I would take a completely different tack on it. And the purpose of the "history" is two fold. One is to provide a buildup. The other is to get a cheap laugh at Houdini's expense. But I'm not really teaching history. I'm entertaining people.
And whether the straitjacket is or isn't "magic" isn't the point at all. It's entertainment. It's like people arguing that "The Linking Finger Rings" is a magic trick, so it doesn't belong in a mentalist's program. Then look at who did/does it -- Al Koran, Richard Osterlind, Ted Lesley, Jeff Evason -- all of them have used it to great effect. And that's the point -- to great effect. It doesn't really matter what you do for those 20 minutes or 30 minutes you are on stage. If the audience likes it and they are entertained, you have done your job. So, why do audiences "buy" the straitjacket escape when a magician does it? 1) Escapes are a peripheral part of magic -- just as things like packing case escapes, metamorphosis, etc. 2) It is something most of them can't do. 3) Even when they see a person do it, they still don't know how it works. And most of all, because no matter what Dai Vernon or any other person thought about Houdini, he was the most famous magician of all of us until David Copperfield came along. BTW, try googling "straitjacket escape."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-08-23 01:08, Bill Palmer wrote: That's my point exactly. I don't see it as teaching history. Quote:
It doesn't really matter what you do for those 20 minutes or 30 minutes you are on stage. If the audience likes it and they are entertained, you have done your job. You know Bill that is such an interesting concept to me. We are entertainers but not all entertainment is magic. And believe me I don't see anything wrong with adding other elements to a magic act. I add them myself...I have a friend who is a contortionist...I find that area fascinating and plan to add some of it to my act...but she gets upset with me because I say it's not magic... and I don't say that to denigrate it... I just say it because everything that is entertainment is not necessarily magic...it doesn't make it less than magic just different. Quote:
And most of all, because no matter what Dai Vernon or any other person thought about Houdini, he was the most famous magician of all of us until David Copperfield came along. I am a person that loves irony and to me that is so ironic don't you think? The most famous magician ever was not a magician...well because he didn't do magic ...and I almost think you have to do magic to BE a magician. There is a lot we can learn from Houdini. He was perhaps the greatest entertainer ever...a great exhibitionist and an amazing publicist....but I don't think he was a magician. I think layppl and audiences will accept an exhibitionist as a magician because to them it LOOKS the same. Both of them look just as real to the audience. But the difference to me is that magicians create the illusion of reality, while an exhibitionist act is reality in that what you see is exactly what is happening, where as with magic what you see is not really happening at all...there is a famous quote...that says something along the lines of..."Magic takes you out of the realm of the possible and into the realm of the impossible." and to me that IS the difference one is possible and reality based, although still amazing, while the other creates an illusion of the impossible. I think it's important for magicians not to define all peripheral entertainment as magic. It becomes accepted and then we have changed the definition of what we are. It doesn't mean that jugglers and contortionist and escapologist are not our bretherens, we are bretheren, but why should anyone not be just as proud to say they are a juggler rather than defining what they do as magic? Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
I believe it's "brethren". Houdini was not just a brother. He WAS a magician. He DID do magic. Even by your definition. He is one of the "fellows" I like to introduce to my audiences. Sometimes they find him a little scary. I have two pics-Scary Houdini and Nice houdini. Though I prefer to call the scary pic VERY COOL Handcuff Houdini.
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-08-23 09:05, magicalaurie wrote: Wow that was so important to share Laurie. You must stay very busy. As for the rest what exactly do you think Houdini did that was magic? By my definition he was not a magician. He was an exhibitionist. Look this is not a new premise...Most magicians I know don't consider that he was a magician...certainly Vernon was outraged that anyone would call him a magician. I'm not saying that he never performed magic. Obviously in his early days he did. He certainly was not successful with his magic act,which is why he dropped it. He did not obtain success untill he became an escapeologist and exhibitionist. When we consider Houdini's work we think of The Strait Jacket Escape , The Milk Can Escape, The Challenge Act, The Water Torture Cell, et...not magic. Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Beth:
I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you are talking about when you say that Houdini was not a magician. Certainly his fame was based upon his escape work, but he always did some magic in his show. He was not a total klutz. He was also one of the founders of the Society of American Magicians. He was also president of the organization, as well. One of the classic illusions of all times is "Metamorphosis." Houdini never presented that as an escape. He presented it as an instant transposition between himself and another person. He originally performed this with his brother, Theo (Hardeen), but the illusion took on real life when he performed it with Bess. She was faster than Hardeen, and the switch was very quick. He was a card manipulator before he became famous for his escape work. And, according to Milbourne Christopher, at one point in his career he trouped an illusion show that many felt was more exciting than Thurston's. Before you start knocking Houdini, it would behoove you to learn a little about him.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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John Cass Regular user 131 Posts |
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On 2005-08-23 09:16, Beth wrote: Let me see. Beth gets to define what is magic. Interesting. Certainly, you are joking. Have you read Jim Steinmeyer's book Hiding the Elephant? Do you know whose illusion he is referring to? Hint: his name begins with an H. And that was in 1918, long after HH had established himself as an escape artist. That was 8 years before he died -- later in life, I would say. He also regulary performed the "Needle Trick" and the second sight routine. The Needle Trick is definitely magic. To call Houdini an exhibitionist is naive and uninformed. Most of his escapes were done out of view of the audience. That is hardly an exhibitionist. I would like to know exactly where you have seen a quote from Vernon that says he was "outraged" that anyone would call Houdini a magician. I want book, author, edition, page and paragraph. Bear in mind that there was a lot of animosity between Houdini and his contemporaries. It's the same kind of thing that exists between wannabe magicians and David Blaine. They look at him as a publicity hound. After all, being suspended over the Thames isn't magic. It's exhibitionism (well, only if he exposes himself). But his bookings aren't hurting. Beth. Do your homework before you try to play with the big BOYS! |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Beth,
Correct spelling IS important. And I do keep busy, yes. And Houdini WAS A MAGICIAN. |
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-23 15:06, John Cass wrote: Beth. Do your homework before you try to play with the big BOYS! "Boys" being the operative word j/k I don't know, I agree with Vernon. Would he be one of the "Big Boys"? ...and who are these ellusive Big Boys anyway lol. The point I was trying to get across was that Houdini achieved his long lasting fame through his escapes and not his abilities as a magician. Bill mentions the Metamorphosis illusion. Houdini performed this illusion so he was the one being locked inside the trunk first, arguably making it more like an escape than an illusion the way it's performed today. This according to Doug Henning in Houdini His Legend and His Magic. On the Dai Vernon The Spirit of Magic video, Vernon says in one of the interview sections, "There is nothing strange to a guy getting out of a strait jacket. Houdini didn't do any magic. He did escapes and put his name across. He couldn't do magic."I think Vernon truly believed exactly what he said. I don't think he would have said it if he felt there was no truth to it Vernon was auguably the most influential magician of the twentieth century. I personally feel his opinion on Houdini carries weight. He knew Houdini well. Bess Houdini was the Godmother of Vernon's eldest son Edward. I would like to also point out that Doug Henning in his biography of Houdini, said that of everyone he spoke to who knew Houdini, "UNIVERSALLY" they said that Houdini was a better escape artist than he was at doing magic. My mind keeps coming back to that word universally... Henning couldn't find ANYONE who knew Houdini that said he was amazing at performing magic? ...and this coming from a guy who was very pro Houdini. Henning wasn't trying to trash Houdini at all.I'm not trying to disrespect Houdini, and in no way meant to diminish his accomplishments. What he was known for he excelled at, but what he was reknown for wasn't really magic. Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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John Cass Regular user 131 Posts |
I believe the word you are looking for is either "elusive" or "illusive," unless the creation of vocabulary is now one of your skills.
The fact is that you misquoted Vernon when you stated that he was outraged. Vernon, like so many of his contemporaries equated being a magician with certain things Houdini did not do. But in the mind of the public, even though he was the "Escape King," he was the greatest magician the world had ever seen. And in addition to the Milk Can Escape, and the escape from the box in the frozen waters of the Hudson (or East) River (depending on whose bogus account you read or see) during which he supposedly breathed in the air pockets beneath the ice, and the Upside Down (which is what he always called it), he was still remembered as 1) the fellow who vanished the elephant 2) the man who did the needle trick 3) the man who walked through a brick wall 4) the man who popularized the Metamorphosis. He did the metamorphosis on almost all his shows. Finally, he will also be remembered as one of the prime debunkers of people who promoted false mediumship. If you have not read the accounts between Conan Doyle and Houdini, you may be surprised to learn that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was certain that Houdini dematerialized to get out of the packing case. I don't see how you can say the things you say and NOT be dissing Houdini. |
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-08-23 13:27, Bill Palmer wrote: My point was not that he never did magic... simply that he was not good at it, and that it was ironic because he is the best known magician ever yet didn't really do magic...and what magic he did was at best mediocre. In Hennings biography, Houdini His Legend and His Magic, Henning states that UNIVERSALLY everyone Henning spoke to that knew Houdini said he was a much better escape artist than he was at doing magic. Don't you think there is some irony there. I guess performing magic in a mediocre way is still performing magic, but I think what he really was was more escape artist with magic as a garnish. My point here was not to offend you by trashing Houdini Bill. I think there is a lot to learn from Houdini. I'm not trying to diminish how successful Houdini was...simply to point out that what he did wasn't really magic. Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
John:
You will never convince Beth that she is wrong. She has her head set on the idea that escapes aren't magic, and that's that. End of story. It doesn't matter how many famous magicians have featured an escape or two in their act, escapes aren't magic. Even if they are listed in Fitzkee as one of the basic effects. Nope. Not magic. I'm more puzzled by the use of the term "exhibitionist." Publicity seeker, yes. "Exhibitionist," not in the sense I know of the word normally being used. So what is wrong with publicity? The whole thing is about entertainment and presentation. Any quarrel with that?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I think it's important here to address the issue of the opinion fellow performers had of Harry Houdini.
Houdini was a self-promoter. He was one of the first real advertising geniuses of magic. His agent contrived to get the word "houdinize" into the Funk and Wagnall's dictionary as a synonym for "amaze with magic." Dai Vernon was a friend of mine. He was the one who was directly responsible for getting me to take the big step to become a full-time pro. I didn't see him often, because I didn't live in California, and I didn't have the wherewithal to move out there. But Vernon was never a successful magician, if you consider the idea of earning the kind of salary commensurate with his skills. Nevertheless, when he passed away, he had (according to one rumor) amassed a nice-sized estate. But nobody ever said that Vernon wasn't a magician, even though he may have, at one time, earned more money as a silhouette cutter. I certainly wouldn't fault him as a magician, as a teacher or as a friend. Vernon and all the other guys who had a lot of skill really resented the success of Harry Houdini. As far as they were concerned, he was just an escape artist who made it big. But Harry almost always did a considerable amount of magic in his shows, and he also did his work competently. If you read his history and study it, you will understand what I mean. Harry Riser was a big influence on me when I was getting into magic. This was back when I was in High School. He came into town about once a month for a while. I asked him about Houdini and what people thought of his magic. And he told me pretty much what I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Then he described an event that he had heard about from, I believe, Max Holden. Max had one of the big shops in Philadelphia. One afternoon, Houdini came into the shop, and a lot of the local guys were there. One of them said "Hey, Weiss! Do a trick for us." So he asked if anyone had a cigarette. Someone lit one up for him. He did a fairly simple looking vanish, a little handwashing, and the cigarette had gone. It was a very clean vanish. It fooled these guys completely. They gathered in a little closer and one of them said, "Hey Max! Come here and see what Harry just did." So Max came over and watched it. No p--l, no sl----s, the cigarette was gone! They got him to repeat it twice more and never caught him. They wouldn't admit it was good. They couldn't stand to tell him that. It was beneath their dignity. They figured it out about 10 minutes after he left. They found four smoldering cigarette stubs over in one corner. He had f-----d them over there under cover of his h-------ing.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-08-24 16:32, Bill Palmer wrote: I absolutely agree with that I think there is no one who would say differntly. Houdini was a great self- promoter and when I used the word...perhaps a bad choice...exhibitionist...I meant it as a good thing. We could all learn from Houdini in how to self-promote. Even Vernon gives Houdini cudos for being a great self-promoter and escape artist in Hennings book Houdini His Legend and His Magic, and he also mentions Houdini's amazing ability to "put him self out there" in the video Dai Vernon The Spirit of Magic, so I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with that point. I see nothing wrong with publicity. Quote:
On 2005-08-24 03:52, Bill Palmer wrote: I don't see escapes as magic. Nothing wrong in having them in our acts. Many magicians add other elements to their magic, but, to me, an escape is not magic. It is reality based. It is really happening. Whereas in magic very little you see is actually happening. I think this is a fairly common though not universal opinion, so I'm not sure why you seem so shocked by it. Doug Henning in his biography stated that universally everyone he spoke to said Houdini was a better escape artist than magician. What he didn't do was group them together as one and the same thing. I don't see this as being completely jealous oriented. I think Henning saying UNIVERSALLY everyone he spoke to who knew Houdini said that Houdini was a better escape artist than he was a magician is very telling. I don't think EVERYONE was out just to trash him. T. A. Walters in The Encyclopedia of Magic and Magicians states about Houdini, " While he is regarded by the general public as a magician, as such he was only of fair competence; as an Escapologist, however, he was the greatest of his time, and it is unlikely anyone will eclipse his accomplishments in this field." That pretty much mirrors what I believe to be true of Houdini. Which brings me back to our original topic...should we actually give a real history lesson to our audience?... or would we instead give a white washed account? I personally would never say these things about Houdini to layppl much less an audience. What would be the point....to disillusion them? However, I don't see any harm in talking about it between magicians. If we are so upset by magicians speaking of these things that we don't even want it said, ultimately as historians where does that leave us? Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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onezero1 Regular user 178 Posts |
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On 2005-08-17 09:55, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Yes. that's what it is...heh, sometimes the wood is obscured by the trees. Thanks.
'though it stands to reason that a samurai should be mindful of the Way...it would seem that we are all negligent.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Please, Beth. If you are going to use quotes from authors, at least spell their names correctly. The more you do this, the more it reveals your lack of knowledge. T.A. Waters never saw Houdini perform. That's a fact.
I like the way you drop the names of people you most likely never have met. Be careful. Sometimes the people whose names you drop are people that others here have known personally. Also, please be sure you know the meanings of the words you use. Meaning "exhibitionist" in a good way is almost like meaning "pedophile" in a good way. Common usage of the word gives it the meaning of "flasher." I don't want to accuse you of being anti-semantic.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Beth Loyal user Missouri 277 Posts |
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On 2005-08-25 13:43, Bill Palmer wrote: Bill, as usual you've chosen to largely ignore the points I was trying to make and instead have resorted to critiquing spelling errors. Being a full time student, I don't always have time to proof read everything I post. I apologize that my mistakes so offend your grammatical sensibilities. It's true that T.A. Waters never saw Houdini perform. But then, neither did you. I would imagine when he wrote that as a magician Houdini was "only of fair competence" he was trying to provide a general consensus from those who did see him perform. According to you T.A. Waters was wrong. Doug Henning was wrong, even though everyone he interviewed who had watched Houdini said much the same thing. Dai Vernon was wrong, or mistaken or jealous, when he said the things he did about Houdini's abilities as a magician on the Spirit of Magic documentary. You say all these people are wrong, and you base this on a story told to you by Harry Riser told to him by, you believe, Max Holden. I'm sorry, but discounting the opinions of all the others who did see Houdini, as represented by Henning and others, and instead choosing to believe a second hand story that supports what you want to believe seems not only arbitrary but illogical. I wasn't aware that quoting different magicians was wrong unless you had actually met them. So is that applicable only in regards to magic, or any published work? Maybe the next time I have to write an essay on a particular book I can tell my instructor that I'm unable to track down the author for a face to face meeting. That would really fly. You see, Bill, I wasn't dropping names, I was providing the names of magicians who had written or said specific things germane to the discussion. There is a difference. If I just put the quotes up without their names, you would accuse me of making things up. I use their names and I'm name dropping. I guess I can't really win by your reasoning. Also, Bill, FYI, according to Websters, the number one meaning of exhibitionism is "a tendency to display one's abilities or to behave in such a way as to attract attention." In conclusion, I think I'm through with this discourse as, even though you accuse me of being obstinate, you are anything but receptive to opinions that contradict your own. I've tried to remain friendly and civil, yet you insist on attempting to demean not only my writing abilities but my knowledge of magic. I thought this site was about magicians helping magicians, not shut up if you say something I don't agree with. I don't know what you get out of trying to embarrass me by making snide comments and continually avoiding the issue, but I'm getting nothing from it at all.
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Snide comments have been a two- way street at least, I believe.
Good, common-sense advice has also been offered. Being able to accept it may not be easy, but says much about the true intent of an individual. Regarding Houdini: at the end of the day he was still a magician. No doubt. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Wow! Beth! When I read your response, I almost choked on my hot fries and OJ!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
I wouldn't want that to happen, Bill.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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