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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Mnemonica vs. Osterlind Stack (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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docelk
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Have both systems, and know basic logistics of each. Have not memorized either stack fully yet. I note that just about all the tricks in mneumonica use a faro or anti-faro (cannot do this, yet), and tricks are specifically described using tamiraz stack, and corresponding numbers, and corresponding cards (making it a little difficult to transpose into the O system.) Seems learning the faro will be difficult, and certainly another learning curve. The tricks seems intricate, but excellent, and the book is certainly a masterpiece.

OTOH, I like osterlings system (no faros), and enjoy the basic fundamentals a little better, along with the memory aids of the Lorayne memory system.

And, now, the question please.....If I'm willing to put in the time, but don't have a great memory, which system should I continue to learn and practice with. Does it pay to learn the O system, and try to transpose some of the effects from the M system, or just bite the bullet and learn the M system??
Life is a test. It is only a test. If this had been a real life, you would have been given further instructions on where to go, and what to do.
Jeff Corn
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It doesn't matter which stack you memorize, the effects will be the same. I'd suggest the Osterlind Stack because if your memory goes, you always have a backup and can do the normal routines that don't require memorization.
Yes, that is my real name. Yes, I am a real person. No, you probably won't agree with me.
fazzer
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What is the osterling?
I would like to buy a set of osterlings...

PS: Mr. Osterlind, your name has seen so many variations on the web... Although it is so simple to spell and pronounce... I feel so sorry about this phenomenon...
Alan M
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If you are sure that you want to get into memorized deck magic, I would suggest taking a look at the Aronson stack also- you can find this in Simon Aronson's Bound to Please, which is a compilation of his early works. You may decide against his stack, but doing some more homework on the various methods/systems before you settle on the right stack will save you some headaches in the long run, just my opinion- and good luck with the stack you choose.
Richard Shippy
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Quote:
On 2005-08-03 13:39, Alan M wrote:
If you are sure that you want to get into memorized deck magic, I would suggest taking a look at the Aronson stack also- you can find this in Simon Aronson's Bound to Please, which is a compilation of his early works. You may decide against his stack, but doing some more homework on the various methods/systems before you settle on the right stack will save you some headaches in the long run, just my opinion- and good luck with the stack you choose.


Yes, I'd recommend checking out Aronson's stack as well. In addition, you may want to consider creating your own stack which has all the components you need. You can pull components from the popular stacks and build them into your own. Just a thought.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Rich
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." ~ Winston Churchill
LeConte
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There is no question that Mnemonica is the way to go. There are also many (almost infinite) applications of the Tamariz stack that do not require a faro.

The built in features of Mnemonica are too numerous to list. Learning the stack only takes confidence. Yes simple confidence is what you need the most of to learn the stack, and when you do you will have the ultimate instrument.
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mc_magi
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I disagree with you LaConte, although Mnemonica is definitely a superb stack, there are many others and its all about fitting the stack to your style isn't it?. and commiting stack to memory is quite a job.
btw, I DO use mnemonica and it is an excellent stack.
LeConte
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If you are to learn a stack then why not learn Mnemonica? Mnemonica can fit into any style and can be used for any general stacked deck trick. It can not be used for a few Aronson stack-specific routines (and obviously many stack-specific effects from other stacks) granted, however, the trade-off is the awesome built in power of the numerous feats possible with the Tamariz stack, including a clean "any hand called for" poker routine. Again, the overall list of the benefits of the Mnemonica stack versus other stacks is detailed in the book. Whatever works best for you.

Why would Mnemonica not work for you?

Learning a stack is quite a job, but it is not a difficult as many people might make it out to be. I just want people to be confident. You can learn Mnemonica. If I learned it, so can anyone else. I did not sing to learn it, nor did I draw on any cards.

The 33rd card is the Eight of Clubs.
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Richard Shippy
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If the choice is between Mnemonica and Osterlind I'd definetly choose Mnemonica.

However, between Mnemonica and Aronson it would be a toss up for me. Mnemonica seems to have many more built in features but there are a lot of people publishing things they have discovered within Aronson's stack as well. Dennis Loomis has some excellent routines on his website devoted to Aronson's stack.

In any case, I highly recommend memorizing a stack. The magic that can be performed with a memorized deck is awesome! It is well worth the effort and anyone can do it. In addition, a deck of cards make for great notecards. I remember learning Organic Chemistry in college using notecards. Just put the numbers on the back of the cards and quiz yourself often. Go both ways form card to number and then number to card. You'll get it down in no time!

Take care,
Rich

P.S.
The Eight of Clubs in Aronson's stack is 16. Smile
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." ~ Winston Churchill
scott0819
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I actually prefer the aronson stack to the Tamariz stack. the aronson stack has many similar features to the Tamariz stack, poker deals, spelling tricks and an 'any hand called for' feature.
simon aronson's latest book also contains a large chapter on built-in tricks that begin and end in aronson stack order.

learning the stack using the phonetic alphabet as described in 'bound to please' also gives you a back-up if you have a memory lapse while learning the stack.
scorch
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Here's a link to an excellent essay on memdecks by Doug Dyment: http://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html

I'd go with the Tamariz system. You can do a lot more with it than the Osterlind system, which is not a memorized stack but one based on mathematical principles. As such it is far more limited in its applications, although somewhat easier to learn initially.

There is a myth that a memorized stack like the Aronson or Tamariz is difficult to learn and retain. That is good in a sense because it discourages many people from using them, but it's an unnecessary fear. It takes the better part of a day or two of focused study to memorize the Tamariz stack, and there are so many effects that you can do with it that are in the miracle class. It's well worth the effort. You will probably want to learn a good false riffle shuffle if you don't do one already, but you don't need to do a perfect faro to do most of the stuff.
Dennis Loomis
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It's hard for me to be objective because I work with the Aronson Stack and have for some time. A memorized deck is a far more powerful tool than a stack like the Osterlind BCS or Si Stebbins. However, you can do some amazing card magic with those stacks, as Richard Osterlind has proven. You can, of course, memorize the Osterlind Stack. And, there's nothing wrong with doing so. However, if you are going to start using a memorized stack, it seems a good idea to use one which has some built in effects that you can do. The two richest memorized stacks (IMHO) are the Aronson and Tamariz. There may be a little more material available for the Aronson, but there are many wonderful routines built into Mnemonica as well. You might also take a look at your repertoire of card magic and create a stack which incorporates the preset for one or more of your favorite effects. Then memorize that and you'll be ready to perform those routines at any time.

There are no built in routines with the Osterlind Stack, although people who work with it will no doubt discover some real treasures. It's just a matter of searching.

If you feel that you work in venues where Poker based card routines will be appreciated, you'll definitely want to use the Aronson Stack. Not only can you deal ANY poker hand called for, but if a Royal Flush, a Full House, or Four of a kind is called for, you can ask whether they would like there to be four hands or five. There's also an excellent Bridge deal, and a blackjack deal. (Simon did not build the blackjack deal into the stack, it was discovered later. But it's there for you to use.)

There are numerous card effects which can be done with ANY memorized deck. For Example, Simon's Histed Heisted can be done with others memorized stacks, not just his. It's a marvelous "mental-magic" routine for parlour or small platform shows. I've even done it is some fairly good sized theatre shows.

If you do decide to get into memorized deck work, I invite you to visit my web site. (URL is below) In the section on memorized deck work, I've posted all 20 of the articles I've written for the E-zine "Smoke and Mirrors." They are all about memorized deck magic and while many are Aronson Stack dependent, many are not.

If you do Faro Shuffles, you can incorporate them into your memorized deck magic, but it's not a necessity. You will benefit from knowing at least one good false shuffle, but again, it's not an absolute necessity. And, working on estimation will benefit your memorized deck work enormously.

Good luck. Jump in... it's not as hard as you think, and the rewards are enormous.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Mesquita
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Quote:
It doesn't matter which stack you memorize, the effects will be the same.

?????

I think you need to read at least the Juan Tamariz Book "MNEMONICA", and I'm sure you will change your mind.
"Siempre somos tres me acompańa la luna y me sigue mi sombra" René Lavand
Mano
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I also go with Mnemonica, it took me 8 hrs to memorize the whole 52 cards, it did not took me that long,because I use to be a speedcubist and I had to memorize hundreds and hundreds of algorithm in other to solve the rubiks cube in the low 20s senconds.

Peace out there.

Mano.
Richard Shippy
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Dennis,

Your website resource for memorized deck routines is fantastic!!! Thank you for putting out this excellent material. I really enjoy working with Aronson's stack.

Take care,
Rich
"They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds." ~ Winston Churchill
drumdemon420
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I'm not sure if I should post this here, but here goes. I know the osterlind stack and I love it. it just makes sense to me. However, I am very interested in Mnemonica. I can hit a perfect faro about 85-95% of the time, but I have no clue what an anti faro is. Is it in the book? If not, where can I learn it? How hard is it compared to the faro? I learned the faro from marlo's RCT, so I know many varations but I cant find that one. Am I missing something? Some help would be appreciated. Feel free to get in touch with me.

peace,
the demon
graemesd
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Si stebbins -very underrated
easy to stack
easy to unstack
simple to calculate

Ps easy tos tack with the si stebbins secret
LeConte
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Quote:
On 2005-08-03 23:54, drumdemon420 wrote:
I'm not sure if I should post this here, but here goes. I know the osterlind stack and I love it. it just makes sense to me. However, I am very interested in Mnemonica. I can hit a perfect faro about 85-95% of the time, but I have no clue what an anti faro is. Is it in the book? If not, where can I learn it? How hard is it compared to the faro? I learned the faro from marlo's RCT, so I know many varations but I cant find that one. Am I missing something? Some help would be appreciated. Feel free to get in touch with me.

peace,
the demon


The anti-faro is described in the book to answer your question.
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rickmagic1
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I'd have to answer that like this...it depends on what you want to do!
I've been using the Osterlind system (not stack) for years. It is a powerful tool. The biggest difference for me (beside knowing the location of a particular card) is that it only takes 10-15 minutes to learn.

Now, having said that, I'm working on the Tamariz memorized stack now. My desire is to learn that and add some of Juan's beautiful material to my repertoire. Do I feel that it's better? No, it's just another tool in my arsenal.

Rick
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Jay Elf
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Hello.

Stacks with built-in effects:Aronson, Mnemonica, and Hacker stack.

If you want strong built-in gambling demos, go Aronson's. If you like to perform New Deck Order climax, go Mnemonica. If you have already particular favorite effect with Si Stebbins system, go Hacker.



Stacks with no built-in effect:Joyal stack and Osterlind stack.

If you have trouble memorising stack by ordinary mnemonic method (used by Aronson's and Osterlind's), go Joyal's. Joyal stack is easier to memorise without using ordinary mnemonic method. If you want mathematical back-up system, go Osterlind's.


Happy memorisation.
-Jay-
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