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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Mnemonica vs. Osterlind Stack (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Alan M
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Hi Dennis,
Your post on this topic is very informative and I will visit your site to read the articles as I am working on the Aronson stack currently. I have all 52 cards memorized, but I don't have them down cold. Regarding estimation, and your suggestion to work on it - what resources would you suggest for that? Thanks for any input you can offer,
Alan
Nick Pudar
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Time for a shameless plug for my free software called StackView. You can download it for free at http://www.stackview.com. It has a Test feature that can help in keeping your memorized knowledge fresh. You'll also find quite a few other features to explore the depths of your stacks.

I hesitate to do this, but will mainly to put some extra pressure on myself. For the last year, in my spare time, I've been working on the next version of StackView. It has a lot of new features that I'm looking forward to releasing. I'm in the final stages of error-proofing and testing. Then the least favorite part - writing the manual. I'm contemplating doing away with the standard Help format and going to a more detailed PFD file that reads like a normal manual. Any input at this stage would be timely.

Nick

On the topic at hand, as many have said in the past, the most important thing to do is actually use the stack that you've memorized. And keep it fresh in your mind.

Clearly, Aronson and Tamariz provide you with some nice built-in material. But there is a tremendous amount of stack-independent material out there. As Dennis Loomis pointed out, Aronson's Histed Hiested is a killer routine that plays for huge crowds and is a definite closer. And it is stack-independent. Dennis provides some very nice ideas for that routine on his referenced website -- if you do this routine, or are contemplating it, be sure to check out his ideas.

Nick
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.
www.stackview.com Version 5.0 is available!
Dennis Loomis
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I think that the most comprehensive work on estimation is probably Ed Marlo's Revolutionary Card Technique. It's not specifically related to mem-deck work, however.

When you have your Aronson Stack down, just practice cutting to particular cards from "home" position. Since you know the stack number, you know how shallow or deep every card is. You'll probably surprise yourself. It's not hard to get within three cards with a very small amount of practice. Mike Close hits "dead" on over 90% of the time. But you don't have to be that accurate. Since you know where every card is, is you are cutting to get to a position, a quick glimpse of either the top or bottom card tells you exactly how close you are and then you can quickly adjust. In this way, you can force any card in the deck at any time without obviously looking through the cards to find a specific one. This is incredibly valuable to a card worker.

To Richard Shippy,
Thanks for your kind words. Feel free to use any of this. Perhaps someday I'll pull all of this material and more together into a book. But for now, it's just there on my site for all to use.

To Nick Pudar,
Your Stackview Utility is a GREAT tool to any card worker. For those of you working on memorizing a deck, get to Nick's Site and use it. It's very helpful.
Nick, I'm glad you share my enthusiasm for Histed Heisted. I think it's about the closest thing to real mindreading that you can do with a deck of cards. I've never had a layman suggest any possible solution, much less the right one. This is one of those memorized deck routines where no one is going to even consider that having the deck memorized would help in any way. I often leave the deck with the spectator that does the final shuffle of the cards. I just put the deck into the card case for him, adding back in the two cards which are not used. He's now got an ungimmicked deck to take home.

Dennis Loomis

P.S. I'm always looking for new effects and routines with memorized decks, or ways to do standard effects with a memorized stack and keep it intact. If you have any thoughts along these lines, please feel free to contact me and I can use your ideas in both Smoke and Mirrors and on my web site. (With your permission, of course.)
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Eric Falconer
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I'm a Mnemonica fan. I like that it can be shuffled into. I like that you can shuffle out of it back into New Deck Order.
There are a lot of built in tricks but I don't do many of them. I do do a lot of stack independent stuff. A lot of Michael Close's material as well as Simon Aronson's stuff. I also use a marked deck that is stacked so that I can use the marks without having to peek.
Yeah it requires The Faro Shuffle (Out). But this is a useful shuffle anyway. All it takes is a knack. Just practice practice practice. You can tell when you miss. You can tell as it happens and just back up the cards and start over. I always finish 100% because if I sense a miss then I just open back up and start over.

BTW. The difference in an Out Faro and In Faro....
Out-faro: means the top card always stays on top and the bottom card always stays on bottom no matter how many out faros you do the top and bottom card never change. 8 out faros return a deck back to it's original order.

In-faro: means the top card is woven into the bottom half and the bottom card is woven into the top half thus you have a new top card and a new bottom card. I think it's like 32 in-faro's will return a deck to it's original order. I wouldn't know I never do the in-faro.

Just practice practice practice. Learn the Faro Shuffle. Set up your stack (whatever one you are going to use) and do 5 out-faro's. Then when you go to perform do 3 more before beginning... It looks like you've thouroghly shuffled the deck but it is in memorized order!!

Eric Falconer
Eric Falconer

Houston TX
Dennis Loomis
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Just a reminder: New Deck Order is different for European Decks than for American Decks. If you go from the Tamariz Stack into new deck order, it's doubtful that Americans will notice the difference. But you can't go into Tamariz stack order starting from a newly opened American deck. Perhaps there's an adjustment to the procedure that will allow that? Any of you Tamariz Stack workers know?

Dennis Loomis
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LeConte
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You can get into Mnemonica order from a newly opened North American deck. There is an adjustment that can be made. I must admit this is not easy but in the hands of a master, well, it is no problem.

Another very important feature of Mnemonica not really mentioned yet on this thread is the ease at which you can get into stay-stack order. There are many stay-stack miracles, including some big closers(Super Poker and Everything in Order)!

Never forget the stay-stack!
Drive Carefully
Steve Suss
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One of the real nice features of the Mnemonica stack is the ability to put the deck back in full deck order. This is certainly one of the greatest climaxes in magic and it blew me away when I first saw Tamariz do it on a video tape.

My question is if there is anything comparable with the Aronson stack ? Can the entire deck be brought to some order? I presently work with the Aronson stack and would rather not change or learn another stack, but putting the deck into full deck order is one of the most impossible effects I have ever seen and had me thinking about it for the last 10 years. How many card tricks can do that?
LeConte
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The ability to finish in perfect order is a feature of the stay-stack and I don't believe many other seperate stacks allow you to easily get into stay-stack like Mnemonica.

I don't use the Aronson stack but I'm almost certain that it does not offer this feature.
Drive Carefully
Steve Suss
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Thanks for your reply. I didn't think you could get the deck back to new deck order with Aronson but I'm curious if you could get it back to some other order that looks almost as good.
Dennis Loomis
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It's a common misconception that stay stack means that mate cards are in the complimentary or mirrored positions. That's only one kind of stay stack. Any memorized deck is already a stay stack. This means that any full deck memorized deck will stay in stay stack order throughout repeated faro shuffles. This leads to some remarkable locations effects. The advantage is that since the relationship between the stay stack pairs is not known to your lay audiences or to most of your brother magicians, effects which would give themselves away when you have a mated stay stack deck will not be obvious when you start with an Aronson Stack. To read more about this, check out page 114 in Simon's book: The Aronson Approach.
Dennis Loomis

To Eric Falconer,
It takes 52 "in Faros" to return a deck to it's original order. Not very practical for real world use. Only 8 "out Faros" are needed.

But, along the way, stay stack is maintained. That means that cards in mirror positions are complimentary. (Their stack number total 53)

Dennis Loomis

Quote:
On 2005-08-05 16:20, LeConte wrote:
The ability to finish in perfect order is a feature of the stay-stack and I don't believe many other seperate stacks allow you to easily get into stay-stack like Mnemonica.

I don't use the Aronson stack but I'm almost certain that it does not offer this feature.


I don't mean to quibble, my friend and I'm not criticizing. But, to be accurate, the ability to end in New Deck Order is a feature of Mnemonica, not stay stack in the general sense. Any full deck stack in which you know the stack position of every card by number is a stay stack as I mentioned earlier. And most of them won't get you to New Deck Order. As you correctly stated, the Aronson Stack does not offer this procedure. Which is not to say that someone won't figure out a series of shuffles, cuts, and other moves which get you there. I fear, however, that the path would be long and complex.
Itinerant Montebank
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LeConte
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Mr. Loomis thank you so much for sharing the expert knowledge that you have. I picked up a copy of The Aronson Approach. I'm a little confused because Tamariz speaks of arriving at Stay-Stack and then going into new deck order.
Drive Carefully
Dennis Loomis
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You got it, LeConte. Mated Stay-stack is an excellent term. Thanks for thinking of it.

Glad you got the Aronson Approach... it's a marvelous book, as are all of Simon's books. With this one and Mnemonica, you have a wealth of powerful card magic at hand.

Best to all.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
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