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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
Glenn,
I am glad that you were able to estimate some value in my post above. Again, I can't be sure if these moves had been mentioned at an earlier date, but I would not be surprised if they had been. As I said before, these moves MUST have been around for a while before they were mentioned in text. We should also all learn something here: These moves may have been MENTIONED in the 1500's, but they were not TAUGHT for centuries afterwards. Some of these moves were tantalizingly made mention of in text and were not mechanically described in any known publication for 300 years after in some cases. Some longer.... What should be taken away from this is that secrecy is still the most steadfast guardian of our practice. Magicians and card cheats alike must sap their gratification from sources aside of divulging secrets, methods, or even so much as capabilities. Most people who know me don't even know that I play poker, much less hustle the game. I guess this lesson should be most directed at the person who originated this thread. Man, I know it is hard to keep your accomplishments to yourself - but you MUST keep your mouth shut. If you really need company whilst basking in the afterglow of a game taken down or a move put over, get a partner. I am sure that he/she would be happy to share in your glory, and your profits. Remember, being a cheat is fine (with me anyway.) Being a jerk is NOT. There are many people out there who deserve to be cheated and the wonderful thing about gambling is that it seems to draw these personalities as a flame attracts moths. In other words, there is plenty of work. If you must cheat, cheat those who deserve it. If your friends fall into this category, get some new friends (and keep on cheating the old ones.) If you can't beat a game without cheating, get out of that game. Cheats who can't play on the square are called stumblebums, is this you? I commend you on having the nerve to move under fire, but would you do this at a table filled with those who are sitting behind a couple hundered bucks? A thousand or so? Besides, seconds, bottoms (not buttoms), and all of that other stuff in one game? Hmmm.... Sounds like finger aerobics, not graceful card cheating. Bish, I really don't think that marked cards could ever be traced to their origin. You have to remember that juice, block-out, shade, tint, flash, sorts, trims, bends, waves, corners, edge-work, punch, black-line, line-shade, slick cards, one-way, luminous, daub, radioactive markings, wax, scratch, sand, scroll, swollen diamonds (there are too many KNOWN methods to continue listing) are only the methods that have been released to the curious public. There are many other methods that are beyond the scope of this discussion and, in truth, aren't discussed anywhere. I just don't believe that this type of chicanery can be tracked to it's birth and if someone told me that they had done so, I would not be capable of buying it. Remember, anyone can tell you ANYTHING. Vandy, I am glad that you like the direction that the thread has taken. Let's keep the ball rolling, shall we? It's to you guys.... Check or bet. |
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Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Card cheat, as you can see if you read my posts, I'm with ya in regards to crowing about acomplishments (about cheating) at the card table. I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way when I first read the thread. Not just that he cheated his friends, but that he told them he had done it and also posted that here. I was just fuming.
About card cheating. I also agree that the use of cheating in cards has to have come along almost simultaneously with the use of cards for gaming purposes. Common sense and a little knowledge of human nature would tell me that. As far as the history of cards and card cheating I'm not very well versed but I'm always intrested, so I guess in this case I'll have to check.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 10:57, card cheat wrote: Another great post card shark thank you very much. My line of thinking here that if we could get an educated guess as to around when marked cards appeared then we could give an educated guess as to around when the second deal may have developed. Having the need to deal a second. As we have both talked about the use for the second is in knowing what the top card is. The only two good ways I know to know what the top card is - is to use a marked deck of some kind. Or a peak. The card man can peak when shuffling or afterward like in black jack. I have used a peak and the second deal for a black jack demo for many years. Although there may be a use for a good second with the slick ace.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
Glenn,
Not all peeks are intended to view the top card. Some of them can look further into the deck and the second deal can also be used in conjunction with this method. I don't think that slick aces would be effectively combined with pulling twos in any game, and I really don't think that many cheats would even consider using a slick ace. Furthermore, I can't be sure, at this time, if the second deal was seubsequent to the advent of readers, but there is no doubt that when the two are used together, a frightening edge can be attained. Again, thank you for your kind words. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 11:52, card cheat wrote: I never used a slick ace but I have put some thought into getting the needed card or cards in secret. But I would take an educated guess that readers had something to do with the need for a card man to use a second deal. As you were able to put a date to the card punch I was wondering if an educated guess could be put on readers too.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
Glenn,
As I said, the dates origin for CERTAIN types of marking systems may be traceable, but your question in and of itself is a little vague. What system(s) in particular are you asking about? I mean, there are just SO MANY different ways to mark a card. You have got to understand my point here. Cheat |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Thanks Card Cheat
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
So much is mentioned about this move or that when the real skill is playing an advantage at the correct time. This cannot be learned without playing real games.
Any card move is only as good as it's purpose, if that purpose is to retain a card at position or deal any card to any player, the thing to look at is the moment the move is required and why it is needed. Without this understanding you have a bag full of tricks and minimal chance.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 14:22, Partizan wrote: Right on! I think, however, that the advantages in this case are clear: 1) You know the next card to come via the bubble or heel peek. 2) You can stop the completion of an opponent's hand 3) You can give your opponent a card that would make him stay in the hand and pump the pot. Of course, your hand (or your partner's) would be better. 4) You can help yourself or a partner. Knowing the top, or bottom card of the deck is enough to give the cheat a HUGE advantage and, in some cases, will be enough of an advantage to win the game. This could also be used to help the player save money and, let's face it, if you're not losing - you're winning.... |
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Nik_Mikas Regular user Toronto, Ontario, Canada 159 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 09:05, bishthemagish wrote: Ok. But I would really like to hear your explanation to your theory and how it was arrived at. Especially after my post. Card Shark: It may have been by accident, but you seem to have completely ignored the fact that I said Oleg Stepanov found a recording of the Charlier pass in 1807. This would update your wonderful list of dates, which is very informative (no sarcasm). |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts |
Whilst not at liberty to discuss actual methods of theft, I would like to say that much money is lost to card thieves without them knowing what cards are where or who gets what. An apparently fair game can be controlled without slieghts.
The main skill used is not card control but people control.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 17:46, Nik_Mikas wrote: I would like you to qualify yourself as to who you are. You have not written anything about yourself in the new arrival section of the Café. And I have yet to see anything of what you can do. You have posted a lot in the Café - why so shy? As to my theory what theory? I ask questions or say things in order to get conversation going about things that I find interesting. But I respect the view point of others when they respect my view point.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Nik_Mikas Regular user Toronto, Ontario, Canada 159 Posts |
I'm sorry you feel so attacked, but I don't see how me not posting a public bio makes anything said more or less valid. Nor do I see how my technical ability (which is ok) would do the same. Just because you performed at the castle doesn't mean you can walk around spewing nonsense about things you clearly do not know about, and get aggresive when someone else proves you wrong.
I would respect your viewpoint if it made sense. You can't just put out bad and ridiculous arguements and expect people to respect them. You stated that I was wrong and that magicians methods came first, and were then stolen by gamblers. I then asked how you came to this conclusion. You gave some very odd reasoning, which I quickly disproved. You then said it wasn't even worth you time to respond me. I am about getting the history right. You seem to be about making of crazy theories that go against all historical records and evidence. I may be mistaken, and perhaps you or I wrote/misread your original post. But that does not change the fact that you are reaching for ways to get out of admitting that your arguement was destroyed by me. I do not want to fight, I want to have an intelligent discussion. But that can't happen when I'm "not worth your time", now can it? |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-11 21:29, Nik_Mikas wrote: Speculation and a total assumption on your part. Quote:
On 2005-08-11 21:29, Nik_Mikas wrote: Really that doesn't seem to be the case or the past history between us in other threads. In the past you have had a lot to say about what I can do. Why so shy when I ask what you can do? Who are you? How good you are does a lot to give you opinions value by qualifying your ability. And how long you have been performing magic or doing whatever it is you claim you can do.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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card cheat Elite user 426 Posts |
And now a thread that was beginning to become interesting has turned into a schoolyard ****ing contest.
Wow.... |
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Nik_Mikas Regular user Toronto, Ontario, Canada 159 Posts |
Quote:
Really that doesn't seem to be the case or the past history between us in other threads. In the past you have had a lot to say about what I can do. Why so shy when I ask what you can do? Who are you? How good you are does a lot to give you opinions value by qualifying your ability. And how long you have been performing magic or doing whatever it is you claim you can do. I am mature enough to not let past disagreements get in the way of a good discussion. Sorry you can't feel the same. Perhaps we can take this off the boards as to maintain a good civil disussion. Email me if you want to continue. As for the rest, how long I've been doing magic and how often I perform has absolutly NOTHING to do with a discussion on history. These aren't my opinions, these are facts. Let's get back on track and stick to the learning. Once again, email me if you want to talk about things that don't belong here. I don't want this thread to get deleted, and I'm sure others feel the same. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
One of the better books on both the punch deal and the second deal is the original Phantom Of The Card table by Eddie McGuire. This I understand was a manuscript between the inner circle magicians in New York. This is some story and methods of card shark Walter Scott as most of us here in the Café know.
Later it was published in the linking ring a magician magazine for the International Brotherhood of magicians. The copy I own is published by The Gamblers book club of Las Vegas. To make more of a book out of it because the manuscript is just short of a book. They added the comments of magicians about Walter Scott and the second deal. And magicians that seemed to be in a race to get the strike second into print first. It is interesting reading about what the magicians of the day thought about this move. I think but I could be wrong because I do not consider myself an expert and only a student. But I think that Erdnase was one of the first that published the push off second if not the first. And I think that the strike second came into magic and became well known among magicians through the original phantom of the card table. This is not fact to be written in stone but just an educated guess on my part.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
I'm just wondering about what the criterion is for those that deserve to be cheated? I mean, maybe some of my friends or family are in need of a good old shake down!
Face it, it really doesn't matter who came up with the moves, unless you're a historian or out to legitimize some kinda bad behavior. And contrary to what has been stated above - no one has to respect any thinking, no matter how clever, if the muse was evil. After the war they said that Mussolini kept the trains running on time. And what did Marge Schott say about Hitler; he went too far? Are we still thinking like this? You love the child born of rape because you can turn a bad into a good. The child, like the technique, is innocent. Who would look at the child and say to themselves, " Ya know, you gotta respect those rapists!" Who? Sorry, I don't pay props to miscreants, but they always seem to tie into the 'big' Fish at the Café, who says it's all about the learnin'. A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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d2leo New user 18 Posts |
Just don't misuse your skill.
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1226 Posts |
Yes!
Nice catch! A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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