Stuart, I do agree with the underlying premise of your post, that if Mickey Silver did not want this effect talked about on the forums, it should not be.

If he is showing it around at conventions, and it is good, people are going to talk about it. It would be my guess that he is not trying to keep it a secret. If Mickey's past speaks for itself he does not appear to mind sharing and having what he shared talked about in the forums.

If he did however tell people that he showed it to, that "It should be kept a secret and please don't talk about it." Then Mickey's wishes should be respected.

Y'know, I really don't think Mickey is offended by Mornargo here speaking of a trick he showed him. After all, he showed it to several people out in the open. If he had wanted it to remain a secret that he showed it, he would've said such to these guys...It seems that he did not and so no foul here at all.

Also, if you know Mickey even a little bit, then you know he is not offended and is probably most appreciative of the recognition and homage that has been paid here to his work. It is only when folks take themselves and everything a bit too seriously that such discussions morph into the possible of maliciousness or disrespect. It's when posters here tell you what you should think and how you should think it, what you should feel and how you should feel it that things go awry in the conversation.

Personally, I agree with Dan that this is a place to speak of such things, not to be scolded or sarcastically put down for reporting on what you've seen, what tricked/fooled you or even what magic just blew you away. Look, so much for "Gatekeepers." Stop at their outstretched hands if you like, or just keep walking. Again, I'm sure Mickey Silver is not in any way offended by what mornargo most respectfully spoke of here.

This thread started out with a guy absolutely amazed. Go figure, a magician admitting he's been amazed. How pure and refreshing, thanks for sharing the experience with ME. I personally look forward to seeing Mickey Silver's Bill thru bottle and will in no way regret knowing about it ahead of time. In fact, I know I will appreciate it much more with the 'heads up' and the suspense is killing me. Keep telling me when you see great magic.

The thread has now degerated to a discussion about the ethics of disclosing an experienced 'surprise' and thus compromising the personal relationship between the creator and the created.

Me thinks too many people are over thinking a lot of things instead of just enjoying the art.

Besides surprise and suspense, don't we all just enjoy watching (for the nth time) a good performance by Mickey, or David Roth, or Shoot Ogawa, or "insert your favorite performer here". Even if I know exactly what sleights are being used, I still enjoy the elegance of the artist. For me it is like watching a superb musician play a well known piece.

In general I think that we ignore the artistic side of the performance which includes the routining, patter, expressions, and all round showmanship.

The "wow how did he do it" factor is a far more fleeting experience, and far less interesting (for me anyway). You can usually work it out if you have reasonable awareness of the tools of our trade.

The way I see it is this. Once you perform a trick in public if you don't preface it with "don't tell ANYONE you;ve seen this" it's ok to share the story of the incredible trick AND PERFORMER you saw do an amazing thing.

Performing magic in public ( even at a magic convention ) is like having children. Once you send them out into the world you DO NOT know where they will end up or how they will be regarded by others.

My position about offering blow by blow descriptions of routines which are not in print stands, though I will make special exception for those who feel differently and has expressed a sentiment that it is okay, or condoned such. If it's okay to discuss YOUR material in a way that removes any surprise from the routine or effect, fine with me.

Since so many here require fine points and clean edges on arguments, here is where I stand on the post as made at the top of this thread.

1) I am happy they got to see Mickey offer some magic and delighted to read that they enjoyed the experience.

2) I am quite aware that a signed bill into bottle is a novelty and that such would be a surprise for most if not all who might get to see it.

3) I am also aware that Mickey has not published his sleights and their applications.

4) I question the intent and merit of discussing a novel routine which contains surprises, as such open mention removes the surprises.

5) I suggest that one express one's feelings about such performances without revealing the content unless the material is known to be in print or available so to preserve the surprise for those who have yet to experience the performance first hand.

What are you feelings on this matter?

And yes MagicMan1957, it seems showing anything at convention is in a strange way like having children, as it seems some have no problem taking them, abusing them though I believe such behavior is frowned upon, at least for most children. However, some parents seem to feel okay sending their children into strange people's houses for sleepovers. My feeling on that one is that only PUBLICATION offers open license to others. Let's call that the 'debut' or 'coming out party' for an item.

As one who has had work "borrowed" and published without permission, there is some experience in these matters that informs my opinion, which is all about protecting the magic for others.

Yes, I do see the matter of things set loose into magicdom as similar to setting children free to make their way in the world. I guess I have some parental instincts about these things, even a willingness to protect other people's children. And even when I know the other parent is using their "children" to attract attention to themselves.

Some of us make efforts to protect the glass that is magic, and have freely put more than a few things into that glass. As far as I'm concerned, you are free to admire the glass and call it yours as a part of this community and enjoy its contents as you see fit provided you do not damage that glass or its contents for others.

The process of enrichment for our artistic resources requires we be respectful of those who "fill the glass" as it were, and also that we be careful of the glass itself. In the case of our craft, it's pretty much all about secrets and surprises. The rest is mere technology, something one can see done mechanically in a Disney attraction.

Mickey is exploring coin magic and sharing his discoveries as performances. Much more fun to see in person and even more fun when you have no idea what he is going to do, IMHO.

As far as someone coming on this board and sharing their excitement at something they saw...my take on it is simple...if you don't want something out there...don't show it! The minute you demonstrate something...you have to expect the word to spread. I'm not saying this is good...I'm not saying this is bad...but face it, we are all adults here and we know how the game is played. So, for me...the bottom line is this...if you don't want people doing, or talking about it...don't let them see it. You should know this from past experience!

Mike

This is a most intelligent post Mike! You hit it right on! It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Mickey knows the consequences, especially now that a mere whisper that he is around, coinmen all over have their necks stretched.
Regarding surprises, Mickey himself is the surprise. He probably has multiple endings for any of his effects that even repeat audiences would still get surprised.

Rannie

Mickey Is a very close friend of mine. I have been at,Starbucks having coffee with mickey, and all of a sudden a effect would come to him out of the blue ,he would immediately show this to the nearesat customer.....
that is just the way he does things..................
vinny

Hi Vinny,

You are most fortunate in having Mickey for a friend and being able to "see" his wonderful magic.

We all envy you.

To be upset for someone sharing an experience seems a little paranoid. If anything, the story benefits Mickey. When perform for someone, you want them to take that moment and share it with others. It makes you and your magic even more amazing. Magic is created in the mind, and when someone believes you can do something, even when they have never seen you do it, your reputation as a performer increases.

Am happy the guy enjoyed what Mickey showed him.

Am annoyed he described what Mickey showed him. As you put it "shared" a surprise, thus making sure nobody who read his words would be surprised the way he was.

I put the two sentiments in that order.

I am going to have to support Jon on this one.

By all means tout the acheivements of those you see, but don't give a step by step breakdown of the effect. Let others enjoy the unfolding surprises, as they occur.

It is not a law to do this, just common courtesy and good sense. Certainly Mickey didn't want the trick and the positive reaction kept a secret, but I bet he wants people to experience the full effect when they do get to see it.

Talk about the trick like they do catalog descriptions of magic tricks. Leave out the details that tip the method. Don't say things like "Gee his thumb had a rather plastic appearance." or " Great job on the TT paint job, it really makes it blend."

Part of magic is the surprise. So don't remove the surprise with your descriptions. And if the whole effect is a surprise, then don't mention the effect. As an example, Hans Morretti use to come out of a carboard box that was stabbed by many swords, and when he did he had done a full costume change into a clown outfit with a live chicken! To tell people that ahead of time really reduces the effect for the audience. Let them know it is great and has a big surprise and that they HAVE TO SEE IT!

Use your best judgement and give consideration to the creator and the future audience when faced with deciding what to say.

Kirk

P.S. My understanding is that this is routine that he no longer performs.

Don't you hate it when you perform an effect, (for example lets say a one coin routine ending with a jumbo coin) for your family or friends or customers, and they bring their friends to see you, they say " Hey do that trick where you make the coin jump all over the place and then turn into a really big coin"? Did they mean any harm? No, but they did ruin the surprise for their friends, and unless you're prepared with another method, then you're now going to have to work just a bit harder.

I believe this falls into that category. Do I think mornargo meant any harm, no I don't. I think he was excited about what he saw and wanted to let everyone know about a wonderful routine he saw Mickey perform. I'm sure Mickey wasn't offended in any way, but...

What he did do was, took the "OMG I can't believe Mickey did that" and reduced it to "ah cool, that the effect I read about on the Café."

I agree with Jon and Kirk, I think if you're going to post about an effect you saw and enjoyed. You should only post the bare bones of the effect. Of course this is just my opinion.


Best,
Joe

As I follow this thread, it seems that all of us here want to be surprised at some new moves and routines. Well, there may be a thousand new routines that are created each day but we only want to see those from we consider personally the best. If somebody had seen it first, and expose the suspense and surprises, then we have to wait for another one and hope that it'll be us who will be picked by a good magician and be shown. It is like life's up and down, now we see it, now we don't.

Don't do it right away...do a couple effects first then pop it on them...the suprise is still there. It's all about knowing when to change the moment!

Mike

This post is driving me Crazy, whats the big deal????// Mickey probably made this effect up while he was going to the bathroom,,, and showed it , to the first person who happened along.. This is Mickeys style, he love showing magic. I have watched him perfor the same effects over and over I know what is about to happen, guess what. evey time I see him do his thing it is more amazing
vinny

Mike, I agree, change the moment, but my point was that by posting a full discription of Mickey's effect was pretty much the same thing as when someone says "hey do that trick where such and such a thing happens.

Best,
Joe

Thanks Mike, how easy was that problem to hurdle. "Just knowing when to change the moment." Hard to believe sometimes how folks get stuck at such easy to manage forks in the road. But you're right, I've gotten almost caught on a trick and just immediately showed another quick trick and went back to initial trick, and the spec had just forgotten that they almost caught me. They then went on to be quite surprised, filled with amazement and wonder. Sometimes perhaps we forget that that as the presenter of the magic, we're in control. Good shoot, Mike.

And Vinny is right... Much ado about nothing! Mickey could care less, I'm sure.