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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » NLP and Chief Moose (FBI versus the Sniper) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Codex Reader
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“Meet the Press” of Oct 27th. You may want to get the transcript free on line to examine this more.

I found it interesting that Chief Moose and the FBI used some parts of NLP in dealing with the Sniper.

Using certain words that would "connect" with the killer were used purposely. When Chief Moose said "Our word is our bond" it was a type of mimicking of words the killer used in the note left. The FBI also examined the spacing of the words etc to determine how best to deal and understand him.

I think we will find more people being interested in NLP as it certainly is being utilized by our Government agencies now.

At some point you will hear promoters of NLP using this case as an example of using NLP and the effectiveness of it.
AllThumbs
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Mimcry or talking on the same level is nothing new. Do people really need to do a course to learn this sort of thing??

I am sure NLP advocates would use almost anything to promote their courses.

With reasoned 'guessing' I came up with a profile which was about 80-90% accurate. This is as accurate as your really need. Do you really need to profile like this. Despite suggestions in the movies otherwise, most serial killers are caught quite by accident, as I am sure probably the 'sniper' was.

Regards,

Kris Sheglova
The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe
HuronLow
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Do you think an NLP course is worth going to?
The T&R Project.
A revolutionary take on the Torn & Restored card.

Available now at www.HuronLow.com
Codex Reader
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I look at what I can expect back as a return on investment (ROI) when making finacial decisions. I can't see doing a high priced course on NLP unless you intend to either get into the field of helping others or doing one for a weakness (personal problem) that one has that is keeping you from doing something your strongly desire, thus the ROI may well be worth it.

These things, like all emotional based "science" are more individual based. I'm sure joining the army for 2 years is great for many kids coming out of HS, but it would be horrible for some. Prayer can sometimes solve the headache that the doctor couldn't. The psychologist teaches the one in need how to "cope" so they don't "lose it."

I just don't see a need in mentalism for such skills that NLP offers (from what I understand of it). Taking a sales course or joining Toastmasters would most likely do more good.

Of course, this is just my opinion.
shrink
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The thing about NLP is that you really don't see how powerful and useful you would find those skills in everyday life until you have trained to a reasonably advanced level. It touches just about everything you do.

If the FBI is reported to be using NLP I wouldn't dismiss the importance of applying it to this case.

You can't understand NLP without experiencing it. Its not possible reading a book or watching a video. You have to experience a good training in order to really understand what its about.
mystic1
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Quote:
On 2002-10-27 15:03, shrink wrote:
The thing about NLP is that you really don't see how powerful and useful you would find those skills in everyday life until you have trained to a reasonably advanced level.....

You can't understand NLP without experiencing it. Its not possible reading a book or watching a video. You have to experience a good training in order to really understand what its about.


--------------------------------

So where's the NLP course that will let you pay for it AFTER you have validated all the supposed wonders of NLP?

The history of consumer fraud is rampant with claims of items or courses "you can't appreciate" or even understand until after you've bought it.


There may be *something* to NLP...I've enjoyed elements of the Wonder Words series...but why do so many NLP practioners/experts/salesmen wrap it all in a cloak of inscrutability? The attitude suggests something cultlike to me.

Perhaps the manipulation at the heart of NLP is the manipulation of the people paying tuition to learn it?
promethee
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La fleur de l'illusion produit le fruit de la realite.
Xiqual
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Quote:
On 2002-10-27 12:34, AllThumbs wrote:
Mimcry or talking on the same level is nothing new. Do people really need to do a course to learn this sort of thing??

I am sure NLP advocates would use almost anything to promote their courses.

With reasoned 'guessing' I came up with a profile which was about 80-90% accurate. This is as accurate as your really need. Do you really need to profile like this. Despite suggestions in the movies otherwise, most serial killers are caught quite by accident, as I am sure probably the 'sniper' was.
Regards,
Kris Sheglova
southfield@unisonfree.net


Kris,
Profiling and NLP have nothing to do with each other.

NLP is Neuro Linguistic Programming.
It is a very broad field with many facets.
I believe the most popular form is learning how to communicate more effectively.

All you NLP skeptics out there, please DON'T
learn about NLP.

Thank you for your time,
James
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
shrink
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There are some tools that have been developed and used by NLPers. One of them which is based on the myers Briggs and a few other sources. (MPV metaprograms and values elicitation)

These are taught as interview techniques. In a 10 min converstaion its possible to predict a lot of behavioyrs such as how long someone will stay in a job. What kind of job is most suitable.

Discovering "linguistic Markers" is also one of the functions of this tool. To structure language in a way that will fit into that person's specific system. This means its possible to deliver the same message in a variety of ways that will be accepted with a variety of different people at a deep core level.

Metaprograms and values are usually the main parts used.

I haven't seen the transcript but it looks like this might be what the FBI is using.

Whether it has helped in this case isn't really the issue the fact that FBI is using it at all suggests that it is being taken seriously.

I know this stuff works and im not selling any courses.
AllThumbs
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Is this case there is a clear link. Clearly you can't communicate effectively if you don't know who you are talking to. True?

As far as your last statement. Outside the use as a therapy tool, NLP has a cult following and like many fads, I'm sure this will decline.

Did you ever get your money back from your yogic flying course? Just kidding Smile

All the best,

Kris Sheglova
The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe
Codex Reader
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As I just read in one of my old mentalist books...

"There are more curious, unexplainable things still in the field of Magic."

I agree. I'm not against NLP nor the Tarot Cards as really working to certain degrees beyond our understanding. There is much more than most of us will understand. It is very easy to deny it and find the "out". It is just that real life isn't as black and white as some think.

Shades of Gray lead me into Magic and I found the black and white we all use in most of our performances, but then the Gray areas found their way back in and while it can be explained with rational thought, it still remains it may not be rational to believe in only rational answers. In other words, its not always logical to depend on logic to arrive at answers.

For me, life is more interesting when I accept the Gray, than not allowing it to exist. Some can deal with the Gray areas while others can't or won't or prefer not to at any given time.
PK
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It seems that whenever anybody puts a litle thought into what they say it is hailed as an example of NLP.

The people who sell NLP are selling a con (whether on purpose or entirely innocently).

I find this just as annoying as some mentalism books that tell you how to develop 'real' psychic powers.

NLP is a good theme for a trick though.

Language can be very powerful, but this does not mean NLP is at work!

Please, don't waste money this. I'm dismayed that some mentalists are falling for it.

Kevin
AllThumbs
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Quote:
It seems that whenever anybody puts a litle thought into what they say it is hailed as an example of NLP


Well said.

Just about anything is conveniently thrown under the umbrella of NLP.

"He uses hypnotism, ahh ok WELL THAT'S NLP"

"Look he's touching her repeatedly - he is obviously anchoring to achieve the result"

"He talks! A Clear sign of NLP!!"

Come on! Does 'NLP exist' - sure. But to me its mainly a bunch of old ideas, rebranded, rehashed and regurgitated to make yet more money out of them.

I too am dismayed. Unfortunately I think the discussion of 'NLP' is going to one of this forum's ghosts that won't go away. It doesn't really belong here in "Penny For Your Thoughts".

Regards,

Kris Sheglova
The above is all rubbish, except that which you chose to believe
shrink
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Quote:


I too am dismayed. Unfortunately I think the discussion of 'NLP' is going to one of this forum's ghosts that won't go away. It doesn't really belong here in "Penny For Your Thoughts".

Regards,

Kris Sheglova
southfield@unisonfree.net




Kris: I can't understand why anyone would read posts that don't interest them. Just because something "seems" to be a fad in your model of the world doesn't mean it is.

Anyone who makes constant critisism with little substance of a subject that they know very little about should consider how they look to people who have invested time and resources into studying the subject in depth.

And for someone who wants to see less bandwidth devoted to NLP why are you posting? You are keeping them going.

Its like everything else on this forum you read what you are interested in. You contribute or you just ignore it.

And if I were you I would be curious as to how you are making yourself dismayed? because that's what you should be looking at...

Lighten up..

Smile

Quote:
On 2002-10-27 18:55, AllThumbs wrote:
Is this case there is a clear link. Clearly you can't communicate effectively if you don't know who you are talking to. True?



I haven't read the transcript of the article however what it appears is that they are were communicating with the sniper using his "personal Trance Words". When someone leans heavily on a phrase or series of words to express themselves those words have a deep meaning for them.( we don't nessecarilty need to know what that meaning is).

If you feed those words back to that person it can be like a key that opens their mind to any message or communication that may follow.
Brash
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Yes NLP is a bunch of old ideas, for that matter most things are including pretty much everything we do as mentalists.

However, some of the concepts and application of these "old" ideas are very sound. Don't forget NLP was originally developed by modelling people with those language skills.

Many people in our society constantly look for some miracle "cure-all". It doesn't exist, but just because NLP isn't everything some people make it out to be, doesn't mean it has no merit. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

- Brian
Mark Hogan
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Exactly Brian

NLP came out of Modelling Hypnotist Milton Erickson and others.

It is a study of communication.

Sure There is Hypnosis, suggestion, rapport etc, NLP does not replace these, it just beaks them down to easy to learn chunks.

Milton didn't know how he hypnotised people, he just could (see His intoduction to Richard Bandlers Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H Erickson)

NLP is a way of breaking dowm communication to its individual parts!

If you are intersted in Communication NLP is very powerful.

NLP will not make u a mind reader, however it will Help u convince your audiance that you are(and u dont even have to mention NLP!)

Mark Smile
PK
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Maybe all the colleges and universities that offer courses in the English Language should re-name them as 'lessons in NLP'.

Incidently, in the film Star Wars the Jedi pretend they can use the 'force' to influence people. In fact they were just using NLP! That sneaky Yoda, he nearly had me fooled.

Kevin Smile
Marduke Kurios
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This controversy is nothing new.

Persuasion is ageless and manipulation is everywhere.
Live well,
Laugh often,
Love always.

To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

Without Prejudice, All Rights Reserved.
xersekis
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Quote:
On 2002-10-27 12:34, AllThumbs wrote:
Mimcry or talking on the same level is nothing new. Do people really need to do a course to learn this sort of thing??

No it is about 30 years old as far as the research goes. Although people have probably been utilizing it since the dawn of human kind - since it is a natural process. however, the precise application of the concept is far more current with NLP thinking and related fields.

The scientific notion is called entrainment. And the Brits just recently rediscovered it and named it body echoing.

Yes one can very much benefit by training - knowing what can be done, what observational skills and listening skills one can develop, how to influence and persudae verbally and nonverbally - much quicker and efficent learning in a qualified program than through a book on one's own.

Fabulous stuff. And the fact that the concept is now rather wide spread is actually due ot NLP marketing efforts for 20 years.

One can go back and look at the inclusion into our common vernacualr and layman's everyday lives the concepts of rapport, matching, mirroring, outcomes,
anchoring, VAK and many other concepts now readily accepted and utilized in almost all walks of life, business, industry, government and education and notice that until the later 80's early 90's not many of these concepts were brought up in conversation. Nowadays - quite a bit. Nowadays it is common in business and counseling vernacular. Evgen the concept of brief therapy or getting people to get well and live outside an institution has its direct roots in NLP influence. Very different thinking in these areas even a short 20 years ago.

So much of what is common today as you state - is because of the notions being widely disseminated through books, tapes, seminars, workshops, trainings and in actual use in business, therapy and other every day contexts.

A meme spreading....


Enjoy!
Rex



I just don't see a need in mentalism for such skills that NLP offers (from what I understand of it). Taking a sales course or joining Toastmasters would most likely do more good.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


Yes that is true different people see different need and different things work for different people.

Many of the sales course and even toastmasters have included NLP ideas, approaches and techniques. Many people who have done my NLP based sales programs and Public SPeaking Programs were in toastmasters or had taken other sales trainings and found my approach to go beyond anything offered elsewhere.

You can see what people have to say about NLP training at www-idea-seminars.com and go to the student expereinces. I was the first and only company to publish ALL progam evaluations regardless of what was written or expressed. Including follow up letters from months and years later.

If you are so inclined - go visit. The inclusion of "good" NLP training into one's everyday expereince has numerous positive benefit. The difficulty really is finding good training.

Enjoy!
Rex

NLP is the study of excellence and how to replicate it. It is based on brain and nervous system research, principles and methods. The study of the use of language both verbal and nonverbal and the notion that behavior and thinking can be altered. That we all have a manner in which we do things to get an outcome. Re-adjust the manner, the sequence or the 'chunk size' or both and you can get a different outcome. It is rooted in mathematics and Polya Principles as well.

It has parts that is indeed soft science and parts which are indeed 'hard validated science'. It is a field of study -
and as such some areas are more interesting to some people than other areas.

But it is not a trick or a cult - although some try to make it out as such - or some adherents may behave cult like. It is widely disseminated and used world wide.

And yes many areas of police work utilize NLP. I personally have trained police, DEA agents, hostage negpotiators in its uses. As well as top CEO's world wide, ales people, doctors, therarpists, financial bankers, investment people,scientists, teachers, PHD profosseros, heart specialists, brain surgeons, sales people, managers, customer service, military personal, computer specialists, high schools teachers, housewives, waitressess and waiters, marketers and advertisers, even pig farmers. For 25 years the people coming to my training world wide has comprised some of the very tops of their field and industry as well as people from more common walks of life. Even magicians, mentalists, performers, comics, public speakers, attorneys, judges and politicians.

People all over have read and even gotton hands on experience in NLP. dismiss it if you wish. I love aspects of it. I use it every single day. But if you prefer not to, if you wish to debunk or avoid it go right ahead.
Many others currently use it and will continue to. Some will therefore have more of an edge than those who don't. And of course some will be poor pracititoners of NLP and not get as good of results - just as there are great magicians and some not so great.

But to dismmis it as I find people doing here - would be the same as saying all of magic is worthless. It is a fraud and all magic dealers are out to con magicians and the public. So are English courses and college universities. look at the high price of education and many people aren't working in their major. Some are flipping hamburgers so all of college is a waste.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is a more immature way of thinking. Examing and studying and throwing out what you disagree with or what you find no value in, or what doesn't interest you, while it may be limiting, BUT keeping the good bits and using what does work is more useful thinking.

Out of hand dismissal is easy to do. Actual thought and ivestigation freqwuently takes more time than one is willing to give - hence the easy way out -
just dismiss.

A tool that is useful isn't everything. It depends on how skilled the tool user is. And with that there will be great variety. A tool isn't a panacea. It is a tool. Some will use it, some won't. It won't always work - but then magicians tend to stay away from those effects that are per centage based. They want sure fire - so their thinking doesn't predispose them to using something which isn't a trick, that isn't guarenteed. So the confusion is very understandable. They can't quite graps how it may be of value and so they just dismiss and look for others to help bolster their dismissal. It is all very human and natural indeed. No bad.

And those who never use it will always try to prevent others from finding out about it.
But the good news is - both opinions are valid and accepted under the ability to think freely. It is one's right to chose.

So there will be those who use it with great success, those who use it with partial suyccess and those who never use it, those who never use it and critisize it, and those who know nothing about it because they haven't heard about it.

But they will find out...

Enjoy!
Rex
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The real deal here, no B*** S***, can you buy a book, or DVD that will teach you this
for under $75?

Funny that sounds so powerful...no B*** S***.

It seams that everything that everyone else is selling can cost this much or less.(hypnosis,cold reading, yada yada,Yoda,Yoda)

If it costs more than that kind of money,(and a DVD copy costs around $7 to produce,if you don't get too fancy)I would have to say its a burn, and the seller is a con.

The exception would be numerous techniques that spanned the volume of many DVDs.

My opinion, sorry.

As for the you have to go to the seminar to
learn it: Buy a DVD player and smell the coffee. The world has changed.

My opinion as well. Smile
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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