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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » NLP and Chief Moose (FBI versus the Sniper) (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Payne
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If NLP actually works then why doesn't one of it's practioners post a reply, using these vaulted language skills, to convince the non-belivers of its validity?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
xersekis
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Quote:
On 2002-10-31 19:39, Payne wrote:
If NLP actually works then why doesn't one of it's practioners post a reply, using these vaulted language skills, to convince the non-belivers of its validity?


I think you miss the point. It isn't about convincing anyone on this forum...it is about sharing information. I think NLP is great and don't mind sharing it or saying so. I could care less about convincing anyone else here - so what would be the purpose. If you don't want to use it - don't - I just don't think it is fair to knock the people that find value in it or to dismiss a field of study because one disagrees with it. But the world is a wide open place.

I feel it is a live and let live world. That's why I don't knock card magicians or clowns. But some others do. I would prefer to learn from the card magicians and clowns rather than to suggest they have absolutely no value anywhere at all times. But that is what some people do on this forum.

Again their right - only they will be the ones who ultimately miss out - but then again they don't care - and I don't care if they don't. But I will share that I think NLP is an awesome tool. Other than that posting about it follows the law of diminishing returns - or in other words it ain't worth arguing about - but it is worth using in everyday life.

I leave convincing to the evangelists who need to persuade and convince, to the skeptics and the religous who have an investment in being right for their ego's sake.

But we digress -
Alan Munro
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Quote:
On 2002-10-31 19:39, Payne wrote:
If NLP actually works then why doesn't one of it's practioners post a reply, using these vaulted language skills, to convince the non-belivers of its validity?

Because we don't have the neurotic tendency to have to prove things to other people? LOL!

Seriously, why not just look into it yourself? I certainly don't care whether you believe its value or not.
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christopher carter
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I've had the pleasure of watching Rex Sykes use NLP techniques in his day to day interactions. There is no doubt in my mind that his NLP training and experience make him a better communicator than most people.

I've also endured the rantings of the "anti NLP" crowd, always reiterating the theme that somehow NLP is a con because it fails to live up to its claims. However, I have yet to see anybody describe which claims it fails to live up to, or tell us who is making such claims. Undoubtedly there are certain cult-like elements in NLP, particularly among those who advocate it in theraputic situations, but my reading suggests to me that it isn't nearly so cult-like as its critics maintain. The fact that nobody in this forum who maintains a purely critical posture toward the subject has yet offered concrete examples of what they are criticizing suggests that perhaps they are falling into a knee-jerk antagonism that is is no better informed that mindless support.

Many have suggested that the tendency of NLP trainers to borrow a little bit of "anything that works" from a wide variety of disciplines represents a failure of the system. I can't see how! As an analogy, I briefly trained at a Martial Arts studio in Chicago that taught what they called "the Mix," which ammounted to a collection of the best elements from among the various styles of fighting. Clearly these people did not invent the punch, the kick, or the jab, but they were able to assemble some very good versions of the same into a comprehensible whole. It seems to me that, at it's best, NLP tries to do this with communication techniques. Why not take a similarly pragmatic approach toward NLP? Use what works for you and discard what doesn't.

Finally, several have doubted the wisdom of learning from a seminar as opposed to books or DVDs. I can think of several skill sets where neither books nor videos would really cut it. Try to master your golf swing or tennis serve via DVD. You might get some improvement, but nothing close to what you'd get out of hands-on work with a pro. The reality is that some things are very difficult to learn through more limited mediums.


--Christopher Carter
Codex Reader
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Rex, I've been to your site and it is very impressive. Could you give us a little preview, or something that would help us see how NLP could contribute to a Magician/Mentalist or public speaker/performer? With your history and knowledge in the subject, I would consider myself lucky to have you share some ideas about NLP.
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"Evgen the concept of brief therapy or getting people to get well and live outside an institution has its direct roots in NLP influence. Very different thinking in these areas even a short 20 years ago. " (quote)
I beg to differ.
Brief therapy was pioneered by Dr. Carl Rogers in the early 40s as an outgrowth of his nondirective approach. As a matter of fact, one early case required only ONE therapy session to resolve the client's problem. That's about as brief as you can get.
Now, I'm not trying to badmouth NLP or beat the drum for Rogerian therapy. Just trying to keep the facts straight.
PK
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What claims does NLP fail to live up to? Well since it's so hard to get a straight answer as to what NLP is then it's hard to say. Rex did say though and I'll deal with it in a moment (but don't bank on a straight answer folks).

All the positive (anecdotal) evidence in support of NLP is nothing more than examples of effective use of the English Language and presentational skills. You can buy a book on this for less than £10. Your choice.

What is NLP? Rex states the following:

'NLP is the study of excellence and how to replicate it'

Anybody with a secondary school understanding of the scientific method knows what nonsense this is. This is pseudo scientific claptrap. How the hell can you test a statement like that?

NLP messages should be deleted as trolls. Just as any other unproven and misleading post would.

Merry Christmas
Kevin






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shrink
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The majority of clients I see take only one session not just the odd one! And NLP is very directive rather than non directive.

Anyway it really isn't for Rex or anyone else to supply you with ideas as to how mentalists can benefit from NLP. There are dozens of posts already. A number of posts by myself have given hints as to how it is specifically being used successfully.

If you can't take anything from them and they don't interest you enough to look into it further then just let it go and find some other topic that you can "contribute" to.

At the end of the day we are all on this board for a common reason. We are all interested in "Mentalism". I don't agree with some of the activities that come under that label but I don't constantly whine and complain in those threads. Everyone has the right to their own opinion.

And to constantly complain and whine about something you know very little about is really unpleasant and undermining this forum.

This is a great forum and we are fortunate to have it. Lets cut out all the negative back biting and be more constructive





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christopher carter
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[quote]On 2002-11-01 08:48, PK wrote:

What is NLP? Rex states the following:

'NLP is the study of excellence and how to replicate it'

Anybody with a secondary school understanding of the scientific method knows what nonsense this is. This is pseudo scientific claptrap. How the hell can you test a statement like that?

[quote]
I have a secondary school understanding of the scientific method, and I can see that Rex's statement makes no scientifc claims. He is maintaining that NLP is a craft which utilizes approaches derived from a variety of disciplines for the purpose of achieving a fairly broad range of self-improvement goals. He is not treating it as if it is some sort of magic bullet, rather it is you who is imposing that expectation on NLP.

I will admit that I have not read every NLP book that exists, but I've read plenty. You are right that NLP is difficult to define, that the founders are deliberately elusive. I am aware of some specific techniques that have no direct scientific foundation, and many that do. I'm not indending to beat the drum for NLP, but I do think that, for your critique to have any force, you will have to be a lot more specific. So far it seems that you are imposing a lot of your own baggage on the topic and dismissing it for failing to live up to claims that it does not make.

Since we are discussing mentalism, the issue is twofold: First, can the techniques taught under the umbrella of NLP make us better communicators. Second, can the techniques allow us to create 'psychic' effects. For our purposes, it doesn't matter whether NLP is a specific, definable "thing," only whether it organizes some tools in a useable fashion. The fact that NLP stresses a combination of linguistic and non-verbal skills, can and will make you more sensitive to the ways in which your behavior influences others. Sure, one could study Ericsonian hypnosis and non-verbal communication as separate packages, but it's nice to see them combined. They're easier to assimilate that way.

--Christopher Carter
xersekis
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Quote:
On 2002-11-01 00:13, Codex Reader wrote:
Rex, I've been to your site and it is very impressive. Could you give us a little preview, or something that would help us see how NLP could contribute to a Magician/Mentalist or public speaker/performer? With your history and knowledge in the subject, I would consider myself lucky to have you share some ideas about NLP.


Actually I can think of many. I will share a few briefly today.

For the performer - learning state control or having optimum control of oneself, eliminating nervousness, instilling confindence, remembering with ease, being a better all around performer and learning more quickly or accelerating your practice - what methods used - submodalities (the elements which make up our internal representations) Visual audistoy and kinesthetic - or pictures sounds and feelings.

Anchoring the Palovian means of reinstigating a stimulus or a response and making it sure fire.

Hypnosis - using NLP hypnotic patterns.
Phobia Pattern for removing fears, reframing limitations, there is a host of approaches one can do just for oneself.

With an audience - anchoring and spatial marking - analogue marking - the notino of recapitiulating a response. Elicit the response you want anchor it and attach it to later moments for increasing response potential of the audience building bigger highs. Increasing audience curiosity and fun and desire through anchoring, use of metaphor, analogy, hypnotic langauage patterns, becoming more influential and persuasive.

I readily offer anyone the opportunity to go read the trainers training evaluations at my website http://www.idea-seminars.com in the student expereinces to find out what those who were top in their field and those novices learned and are now able to do. Also read what is covered in trainer training program. explore as much as you like.

Sorry this is brief but today I goota go!

Enjoy!
Rex

Quote:
On 2002-11-01 00:35, Paradox wrote:
"Evgen the concept of brief therapy or getting people to get well and live outside an institution has its direct roots in NLP influence. Very different thinking in these areas even a short 20 years ago. " (quote)
I beg to differ.
Brief therapy was pioneered by Dr. Carl Rogers in the early 40s as an outgrowth of his nondirective approach. As a matter of fact, one early case required only ONE therapy session to resolve the client's problem. That's about as brief as you can get.
Now, I'm not trying to badmouth NLP or beat the drum for Rogerian therapy. Just trying to keep the facts straight.



While that may be so - unfortunately Rogerian therapy didn't carry the impact nearly as strongly as NLP. However it is true Rogers was an advocate of brief therapy - NLP includes some of Rogers principles and methods. And certainly Rogers and others helped prime the way for brief therapeutic treatment.

NLP swept through psychological circles in the 70's and was indeed quite an influential movement - that is why it is still practiced today. Some have added other things, some have left it behind as being too manipulative - the latter being its most often loud spoken critique. Too manipulative for a 'rogerian' therapist.

In other words it does work. Since that time it has swept through the business world, the educational world is still adding in elements, the military and other areas of interest.

So I don't dispute that rogerian therpay and Carl had impact. Most certainly he did. So did some other disciplines. But all you need to do is take an actual look at the development of todays approaches and the inclusion of jargon both in therapy, buisness and education to see that the jargo was NLP jargon.

JArgon now used in everday conversation and description that was absent twenty eyars ago. True client centered and unconditional positive reguard are also mentioned - but not to the extent that NLP notions are.

Enough for today!

Enjoy!
Rex
John Nesbit
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This is some excellent reading here guys. I admire and respect all of the contributions,and the thought that went into them. "Mind,Myth and Magic(k)" i.e, is not just a matter restricted to those in a profession/sideline, centering around a website such as this one. This I'm sure you
understand. But for those who may not be aware, there is a site that is worth looking at. http://www.centerpointe.com , for anyone considering accessing the unlimited potential of their own "mind". This is not just another "fad", nor is it just second hand info.(You'll be there for a while). Another source of information in this area is the book, "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin. You'll find all the "impirical/scientific proof" anyone needs about the unfathomable nature of consciouness, ourselves and the universe. Let's always "be mindful" of the bigger picture. We're not separate from anything. Nor, have we begun to "scratch the surface", of what the Mind is in nature.
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Paradox
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Rex:
It may surprise you to know that Rogers is "still practiced today." Nondirective therapy wasn't a precursor of anything. It stands alone in its own right and is still an effective therapeutic modality.
Many of Rogers' approaches and techniques have been subsumed into other disciplines, usually without credit. Reflection of feeling (a prime Rogers technique) is usually referred to nowadays as a "communication technique" with no reference to Rogers.
Its only problem is that it requred the therapist to BE a certain kind of person to practice it successfully. If you're a therapist & you're not this kind of person, you will probably try it and give it up as somerthing too "superficial" or "shallow" & go right back to your directive methods.
mystic1
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Why do the NLP folks try and turn everything into a COMMERCIAL for NLP, NLP books, and their NLP training courses?
Brash
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Quote:
On 2002-11-02 01:02, mystic1 wrote:
Why do the NLP folks try and turn everything into a COMMERCIAL for NLP, NLP books, and their NLP training courses?


First of all this is a discussion of NLP. Second, since I assume you are directly referring to Rex, you should be aware that Rex is no longer conducting NLP training, and does not have anything to gain financially by sharing his insights with us.

He is extremely experienced with NLP and we are fortunate to have him taking the time to share his knowledge on the subject. No one is trying to turn this thread into anything other than what it is, a discussion of NLP.

- Brian
mystic1
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No, it was *not* directed specifically at Rex. Your post is incorrect.

It seems like all the NLP folks, who do or at some point have been dependent $$$wise on promoting NLP, go out of their way--unreasonably so--to "sell" the concept. They even inject themselves into other threads which have nothing to do with NLP.

It all underscores for me the cultlike nature of NLP.

The way NLP is promoted reminds me of the coercive persuasion of Scientology, EST, etc. And like those cults, the "student" of NLP may expend many thousands of dollars in fees for successive courses.

But what is ironic is that those students who seek to "learn" how to manipulate others are actually the ones being fleeced themselves.
christopher carter
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Quote:
On 2002-11-02 13:06, mystic1 wrote:
No, it was *not* directed specifically at Rex. Your post is incorrect.

It seems like all the NLP folks, who do or at some point have been dependent $$$wise on promoting NLP, go out of their way--unreasonably so--to "sell" the concept. They even inject themselves into other threads which have nothing to do with NLP.

It all underscores for me the cultlike nature of NLP.

The way NLP is promoted reminds me of the coercive persuasion of Scientology, EST, etc. And like those cults, the "student" of NLP may expend many thousands of dollars in fees for successive courses.



Please show me an actual example of where an NLP advocate has inserted a sales pitch for his courses into a thread that wasn't about the topic of NLP. I've been searching the threads, and I can't find one yet.

Also, please show me who pushes the sort of pyramidal training program you describe. I'm not saying they're not out there, I'm just saying I haven't been able to find them.

I have no problem with you or anybody else being critical of NLP, I really don't have a dog in this fight, but for goodness sake, if you're going to be so vocal in your opposition, can't you at least provide some examples to back you up.

--Christopher Carter
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Christopher Carter wrote: <quoting>

Please show me an actual example of where an NLP advocate has inserted a sales pitch for his courses into a thread that wasn't about the topic of NLP. I've been searching the threads, and I can't find one yet.

Also, please show me who pushes the sort of pyramidal training program you describe. I'm not saying they're not out there, I'm just saying I haven't been able to find them.

_________________________

1. Just one group of various examples: In some of the Derren Brown threads--the ones where NLP was not at issue--NLPites went out of their way, sometimes tortuosly so, to inject NLP.

2. As far as I know the majority of NLP course providers provide "advanced" courses...and then "further advanced" courses....once the sheep have been shorn the first time. (Like Scientology and some other cults...and often at somewhat dizzying prices.)

I certainly wouldn't suggest any members of the Magic Café do that. For one thing, I don't know. As well, these are upstanding people.
shrink
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Quote:



_________________________

1. Just one group of various examples: In some of the Derren Brown threads--the ones where NLP was not at issue--NLPites went out of their way, sometimes tortuosly so, to inject NLP.

2. As far as I know the majority of NLP course providers provide "advanced" courses...and then "further advanced" courses....once the sheep have been shorn the first time. (Like Scientology and some other cults...and often at somewhat dizzying prices.)

I certainly wouldn't suggest any members of the Magic Café do that. For one thing, I don't know. As well, these are upstanding people.



This is just your opinion..... if your not interested in NLP why bother reading those posts. I guess I must be one of those sheep that has been shorn as I have attended quite a number of trainings over the years.

They were worth every penny in my opinion. I would recommend certain trainers I've had the good fortune to train with to anyone.They certainly didn't rip me off I got good value for money. Whether some courses charge to much or not is subjective.

You have the choice to pay and attend them or not just like you have choice to read certain posts or not.

Why do you chose to torture your self?



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christopher carter
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Quote:
_________________________

1. Just one group of various examples: In some of the Derren Brown threads--the ones where NLP was not at issue--NLPites went out of their way, sometimes tortuosly so, to inject NLP.

2. As far as I know the majority of NLP course providers provide "advanced" courses...and then "further advanced" courses....once the sheep have been shorn the first time. (Like Scientology and some other cults...and often at somewhat dizzying prices.)

I certainly wouldn't suggest any members of the Magic Café do that. For one thing, I don't know. As well, these are upstanding people.



The first one, at least, is a specific example, even if the second is not. In fact, unless you can give me the names of some such trainers, or even some "dizzying prices," heck, I'd even take anectodal reports of people who claim injury from such practices (such reports abound for Scientology), your second 'example' seems to be just heresay and supposition.

I still don't see that there is a big rash of people pitching their courses on this forum. As far as the people who are advocating NLP being sheep, you've shown me no evidence that there is any actual sheering process going on. Clearly the designation NLP is to some degree a marketing tool. I've never encountered any kind of seminar or training that didn't offer degrees of advancement. Its a common marketing approach in almost all industries. The mere fact that NLP trainers do this as well is hardly evidence of cult status. In order to convince me of the validity of your comparison with Scientology, you'd have to show me that there is some sort of organized coercion to progress to the next level. I'm betting that you can't do this, because it's apparent to me that you don't know any more about the subject than I do.

--Christopher Carter
shrink
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Im not sure the first one is specific. No one knows for certain how derren achieved his effects. However there a few effects where NLP was used to a point. There were also one or two effects using NLP Language patterns that would only be obvious to people who have studied that subject. Otherwise they would go unrecognised.

But even then no one can be sure how the effects were achieved as it was a edited TV series.
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