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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20244 Posts 
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I guess I feel it may be a generational thing and it may not.
Lets look at Jackie Chan vs. The Matrix for a second. What I mean is the fact that Jackie does ALL his own stunts and they are really cool and it is his skill that is amazing which makes people watch his movies. The movies may not be good, but people appreciate what he does. The Matrix was certianly more popular, but for different reasons. For production values and maybe you can argue it is a better movie. But WHY do people watch it? For different reasons to be sure. So I guess it is a matter fo preference.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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troller Loyal user 276 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-11-15 23:38, Dannydoyle wrote: Even though Jackie Chan is an expert at Kung Fu, he does a take a hundred times to be sure the final effect is determined. The Matrix used real professional kung fu masters to teach the moves to the actors, which had to perform them until they were perfect. Each is the same analogy as stating that Criss Angel made sure the final outcome was determined. Whether using stooges or camera edits, it's all the same thing. Let's talk about Criss' levitation... the one where he goes like 5 feet into the air. Well, no one is complaining that he used wires now are they?! Well it's the same thing to complain about camera edits and then complaining that David Copperfield used wires to accomplish his levitations. Why complain? We are all magicians that know that each trick requires a gimmick or something that helps us control the object and do what we please with it. The camera is another gimmicked apparatus! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20244 Posts
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My point which was missed was people like Jackie because of his skill. The Matrix was a visual spectacular! to be sure, but different.
I was trying to justify BOTH sides here, not argue the merrits of one. I agree with the Jackie Chan side more. I enjoy the skill HE has, NOT the skill the editers and camera people have in the Matrix. Only an opinion.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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voiceover New user 6 Posts
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If I go on stage and lip sync a song, does that make me a singer? Does it mean I can sing?
If I go on TV and show someone a great meal I just made, when in reality I brought it in from a local restaurant, does that make me a great chef? If I pay someone to write a book for me does that make me a writer? If I go on TV and rely on trick photography to do the actual magic, does that make me a skilled magician? Apperently so, according to some of you. |
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jsvoros New user Brenham, tx 5 Posts
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-Troller-
-Even though Jackie Chan is an expert at Kung Fu, he does a take a hundred times to be sure the final effect is determined.- I hate to be a nit-picker here, but Jackie Chan does not know Kung Fu. He Never Claimed he did. Jackie Chan is a chinese opera trained actor. The reason he makes Kung Fu movies is because he likes them and they sell. And the reason he does a million takes is because he dosen't know Kung Fu and wants to make you think he does. Now Jet Lee on the other hand is a Kung Fu expert, was at the ripe old age of five, who picked up acting in order to make money. So a better comparison owuld be: Jackie Chan - Jet Lee, as Criss Angel - Harry Blackstone. The end result is the same to the laymen, but the path to get there is different. And, in the end since it's the laymen that pays the bills then he's the one who decides whats worth the money, not us. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20244 Posts
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As I said a matter of preferance
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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troller Loyal user 276 Posts
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I've been watching Jackie Chan do the old Kung Fu movies since I was a young lad... he does know kung fu. Singing is a extra hobby he had.
Britney Spears does do lip syncing on her live shows.. but it was her that created the vocal in the studio. She can't dance and sing at the same time with clarity. If you learned to cook a meal and presented it on the Cooking Channel, then it is justifiable, eventhough you did not create it in the first place nor did anyone taste it afterwards. Whos's to say it tastes good? Criss Angel performs magic.. same with Lance Burton and Penn and Teller. They all do the same thing and have the same outcome. Stop complaining that Criss uses props, stooges and whatever because I could prove to you that Cyril Takayama does too. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20244 Posts
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Wow I didn't mean to start the Jackie Chan knows kung fu debate!
My point was a stylistic one. He DOES the stunts, that is what draws the masses to his movies. The Matrix used CGI to accomplish their things. 2 different approaches. I PREFER the Jackie Chan approach. I enjoy the actual skill more than the CGI stuff because HE is one of a small number of people relatively speaking, who can do what he does. ANYONE can be in the Matrix and have them CGI the stuff for them. I feel as magicians we should STRIVE for people feeling we are one of a small group of people relativly speaking who can do what we do. Otherwise why are we calling ourselvs magicians at all?> Isn't that the entire point? My feeling is when ANYONE reduces magic to the simple use of props and camera editing (take Chris's name out of it here I am saying ANYONE) it kind of demeans what we do. We should be percieved as having great skill and having practiced, NOT that we have cameras and money. If this is the future of magic, magic is in trouble because the PERCEPTION of the public that anyone can do it will eventually bit us in the but in the long run.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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voiceover New user 6 Posts
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That's exactly what I mean when I say he's using us. He takes our skills and cheapens all of it.
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2727 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-01 09:49, Corey Harris wrote: This is a point. There's a British science fiction series from the (70s? 80s? Not certain) called "Blakes 7." In one episode, one of the characters does a couple of magic tricks. The actor was very fond of magic and actually learned how to do a Phantom Tube production. So, he has the tube, he splits it open to show it empty, he closes it up again, and the director decided to CUT TO A REACTION SHOT OF THE AUDIENCE! Cut back to the character and he starts pulling stuff out of the tube! He said later that when he saw the episode, he cringed because he KNEW everyone was going to say they stuffed the tube full of stuff during the cut! Quote:
On 2005-11-12 20:39, raphlo2 wrote: I understood it. There is a fundamental difference between performing magic on TV and using TV to make the magic happen. Quote:
On 2005-11-15 02:47, themartyr wrote: I'm entertained by "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones" as well, but I don't consider it "magic." Quote:
On 2005-11-15 18:15, TheFourWinds wrote: Nonsense. Stopping the camera, using blue-screen, anything else of that nature is simply special effects, not magic. Frankly, Industrial Light and Magic can do it better than we can.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away." "Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind. Ain't life unkind?" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20244 Posts
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This was the difference I was getting to with my Matrix comparison.
both entertaining, but completly different animals. One ( the Matrix ) is camera and cgi and editing and Jacki Chan is more(not all) but more skill involved in his spacific craft. YET BOTH seem to emulate the skill of the same craft.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magiGlen New user 78 Posts
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The only explanation I can find is that he did an acr on the same girl before. It seems he's searching for a specific person when he's looking for somone. It might be possible that they put the signed card from the acr on the wind shield somehow during a washroom stop on the bus.
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nbps05 Regular user 106 Posts
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You guyz are all complaining bout criss angel, why don't you support him a bit he is a fellow magician who has made it big plus do any of you guyz have a show every wednesday night
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The Mac Inner circle 1962 Posts
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I'm not sure at who's feet I'm dropping this at but:
Tornado of Fire Special by Copperfield: the illusions where edited, som of them cannot be replicated in real life exactly as show on T.V . Did David catch this much flack about it? Just asking? I am qualified in Television production and I can tell you that editing is unavoidable. To be on Television the performer has to show some sort of extrodinary skill -beyond almost anyone else that is why effects are enhanced by editing ( removing dirty work). With video tape and digital media a trick can be played back over and over..and in slow motion until a detail is uncovered. Editing out something that cold expose a method to the national audience is something one might even be greatful for. I think the rub lays in the fact that due to television production techniques the common street magician cannot achieve certain effects as it was seen on TV. I can understand the frustration this would cause..but realise that this maybe the reason Criss and others work the way they do- so their effects can't be performed by every kid with a deck of cards leaving his reputation undiminished. Just my ramblings ..make of it what you will. |
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TheMagicOfDamon New user 55 Posts
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To make a correction about one thing.... David Copperfield on the Orient Express Episode did not have the card signed. He tore a corner off the card and gave it to the lady that was with him... grrr I just watched my old video and her name escapes me. He places the card with the torn corner and places it back into the deck then does the card through window routine.
As for Criss Angel.... I agree that REAL MAGIC to me is on a stage or even perhaps in the street with REAL effects and no stooges or camera edits.... if that is how magic is to be interpreted then any lay person can just be a magician. |
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Dove84 Regular user 181 Posts
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If magic is just going to be camera tricks, editing, and stooges, why do we need magicians? Couldn't an acomplished actor do a much better job of selling the show if that's all there is? When we watch a magician on TV it should be just that, a magician on TV. Meaning he should do the same things you would see him do live. Otherwise you're doing nothing but setting up an unrealistic expectation that ultimately will hurt more than help because it can't be met in real life.
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sickmagic Special user 528 Posts
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This is a old and tired subject, lets just realize that Tv magic and real world magic is not 100 percent the same. And there are many reasons why! If any of us had the chance to do what these guys are doing on tv believe me we would.
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The Mac Inner circle 1962 Posts
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Sick you are right..
I'm not defending or condoning any action I'm just gonna tell you why it exists : Its fine for people who have never had to produce a t.v show to complain about stooges etc. I know how hard it is (I work in television) Criss angel has to a lot of pressure to come up with 13 episodes full of killer stuff so in order to keep things spectacular he probably started using all the above mentioned sins..it lesssned the pressure so he just kept on doing it. You can spend years practising your 5 minute oil and water routine but after people have seen it on t.v once..you better have something else! T.V audience is a lot less forgiving than a live one - |
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Bill Hoffman Loyal user 297 Posts
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I was wondering if this trick is available for purchase? Man the bus part is gonna cost a fortune hahaha
MagicBH@Gmail.com
<BR>http://billhoffmanmagic.com |
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Lusion Special user 590 Posts
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The effect can be done many ways....now as for Criss, as said you pushout 20 something episodes of magic..13 episodes is what you see!!...he is on his 3rd season!!! Best show A&E has had in ages and you need to realize that stuff like that is not easy. Editing will be there on TV and magic....thedays of the great Doug Henning and live magic specials are a thing of the past. Copperfield uses stooges and plants at his shows....but hailed upon, so why down someone else? Criss has made it Point blank, there will be those that hate, that's how life is. The fact is that with magic being so hot right now and I have upgraded my tricks and illusions, thank to Criss and others I now get a higher price to perform. I am not a fan but a friend, magic was suppose to be a brotherhood whats really going on now?
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Posted: Nov 15, 2005 10:38 pm 
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