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NJJ
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Steve - I think you hit the nail on the head with your eariler remarks about people with an experience of "the bizarre in one's life, and develops a 'bent' toward such, an interest in magic is not at all unusual." That would appear to me to be a direct corralation.

I believe I gave the example of an art dealer who has an interest in learning how to fake art. And I can also imagine that people would be suspect of an art dealer who was also a master forger regardless of whether he used those skills to sell fake art.
Simone
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 21:27, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-08-31 19:00, Simone wrote:
Nick and John, you guys are so annoying. It's clear to me that you're not trying to "understand" anything, but using it as an excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at. Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science? Do you believe in God? Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe? Life is not black and white. I believe in my intution, do you? What does intuition mean to you?


I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

I am trying to have a discussion here with people who have a different view of the world, a view that I often find it very hard to understand and that I hope to better understand through questioning.




Ok, let's have a discussion on your terms since you choose not to answer what I wrote. I'm just not going to let you get away with not answering me after all you've written on here. So let's go:

Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science?

Do you believe in God?

Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe?

I believe in my intution, do you?

What does intuition mean to you?

I'm trying to have a discussion and to me it's important that you answer these questions so I know where you're coming from.
JohnLamberti
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 19:00, Simone wrote:
Nick and John, you guys are so annoying. It's clear to me that you're not trying to "understand" anything, but using it as an excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at. Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science? Do you believe in God? Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe? Life is not black and white. I believe in my intution, do you? What does intuition mean to you?


I'm just trying to understand how other people think, and in the process I'm presenting my opinions. I think it is unfair to characterize it as "making fun of" and "laughing at". We are having a spirited debate between people with opposing worldviews, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I don't think I've said anything threatening, hateful, or bitter.

I'll answer your questions civilly, in the hopes that you understand where I'm coming from.

No, I don't "believe" in things that haven't been proven. I understand how some people don't see how this is possible, but that's the way it is.

No, I do not believe in God. Some of the people in my life who are closest to me are devout believers in God, and I think that organized religion has its place. I certainly derived my sense of morality from the basic teachings of the Catholic church in which I was raised. But overall, religion isn't for me.

I no longer believe in Santa, the same way that I no longer believe in God. I lost my belief in God the same way I lost my belief in Santa. Too many things just didn't add up.

I am not bitter, far from it. Anyone who truly knows me knows that I am a laid back, friendly, fun guy with a great outlook on life. (Look at my picture, I'm goofing around with a monkey for crying out loud! Smile ) I have my opinions, and as I said, some of the people I love more than anything are devout believers in paranormal things and religious things. I am not...but that's not a good reason for me to dislike someone. Indeed, to hold ill will towards someone because of what they believe is not a nice thing to do (unless we're talking about extreme racism, sexism, etc.) And I have these debates with people whom I care about.

As far as intuition goes, I think I have it, and I trust it. I consider my intuition to be the sum total of all the knowledge of the world that I've gained up to this point. If I go into a dark alley and see some hooded thugs at the other end, my intuition tells me that it's a bad situation. It's things like that that I consider intuition.


BTW, the great thing about electronic message boards is that there's a record of what's said. If you can point out to me anywhere that I've been disrespectful or hurtful to someone, please let me know and I'll apologize.

And I don't find you annoying, Simone...I'm sorry that you find me annoying, but I suppose there's nothing I can do about that. Smile
NJJ
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*Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science?

Yes - I believe in many things which one can not live without having some degree of faith in. I am also happy to have those beliefs questioned and changed when difference evidence becomes known.

*Do you believe in God?

I don't know.

*Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out?

Yes I believed as a small child. I don't remember finding out!

*Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe?

Nope. I had plenty of chances to believe. I'm not a particularly bitter guy.

*I believe in my intution, do you?

Do I believe you have intution? Yes.

*What does intuition mean to you?

Intuition is trusting that my first instinct is correct and the sum of my experiences, knowledge and education will lead me to make a good decesion. If I can increase my knowledge, I can increase my intuition's success rate if I increase my knowledge base. I use my intuition all the time to make little decesions but when it comes to larger ones (relegion, money, love, philosophy) I am always careful to distrust my first instincts and to seek more evidence.
bevbevvybev
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One of the more interesting things about giving a reading is finding what 'type' a person is

As we all know, there are only so many types, even with Myers-Briggs there are only 16 temperaments

From this thread it is pretty simple to work out what type each person in this argument is, but why not let's all do it, to see what we're all like?

These conversation always reach a point where there are a few die-hards who simply won't budge from their position, and reminds me of meetings I've had in other careers where the last people arguing were the accountants and creatives. They simply couldn't see each other viewpoint as they were such different people.

Here's a link to the Myers-Briggs. If you haven't already done it, do it and let's see what you're all like! I think it will add a bit of understanding to this conversation. It's one thing to argue, and another to accept where someone is 'coming from'

Myers Briggs test:

http://similarminds.com/jung.html

This is me:

ENFP
"Journalist"
Uncanny sense of the motivations of others.
Life is an exciting drama.
8.1% of total population.
NJJ
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Personality tests are a lot of fun so long as you take the results with a grain of salt! They can paint an accurate (or inaccurate) picture in very broad strokes but they shouldn't be taken to seriously. They're a bit like star signs in that if you choose to take them as gospel they split the population into a limited number of groups.

By they way, anyone who questions whether I am truly openminded on this thread or am just using this thread as an "excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at." will be interested to know that I am an "ENTP - "Inventor". Enthusiastic interest in everything and always sensitive to possibilities. Non-conformist and innovative. 3.2% of the total population."

That means I can be an entertainer, comedian or even a dictator!

PS - I also found a wikipedia entry on MB that offers some criticisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBTI
7th_Son
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 19:00, Simone wrote:
Nick and John, you guys are so annoying. It's clear to me that you're not trying to "understand" anything, but using it as an excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at. Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science? Do you believe in God? Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe? Life is not black and white. I believe in my intution, do you? What does intuition mean to you?


Simone, I think you may confusing the terms "Psychic" and "Intuition", or using them interchangebly.

They are *NOT* the same thing.

Intuition is based on intelligence, previous experience, and learned knowledge to arrive at certain conclusions. Eg, you may see a complete stranger. Something about the way they look, the way they stand, the way they talk, the things they say, etc, may all lead you to certain conclusions. These conclusions are probably correct.

I think Intuition is a combination of Emotional Intelligence (EQ), Social Intelligence(SQ), plus a good understanding of people and life in general.

However, there is nothing "Paranormal" or "Extrasensory" about Intuition. It is a right-brain skill that can be learned.

Psychic involves gaining knowledge from a higher source that bypasses the five senses.
This knowledge cannot be something from your conscious or unconscious memory, or from an intellectual deduction. If it is, then it is based on previous experience. That's intuition.

Simone, I think you are highly intuitive, but I doubt you (or anyone else) is truely psychic.
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
JohnLamberti
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I am:

ISTP - "Engineer". Values freedom of action and following interests and impulses. Independent, concise in speech, master of tools. 5.4% of total population.

I don't know about that one...I'm the furthest thing in the world from an "engineer" and I have not and never will be a "master of tools."
Kenn Capman
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 22:39, Simone wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on your terms since you choose not to answer what I wrote. I'm just not going to let you get away with not answering me after all you've written on here. So let's go:

Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science?

Do you believe in God?

Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe?

I believe in my intution, do you?

What does intuition mean to you?

I'm trying to have a discussion and to me it's important that you answer these questions so I know where you're coming from.


I have just read this topic again from the beginning and have found it to be a spirited, and for the most part, well thought out debate.

With some notable exceptions.

Attempting to monopolize a topic to satisfy a personal agenda is, at best, in poor taste, and more likely, bad etiquette.
"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents."
- Salvador Dali -
JohnLamberti
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Been doing a lot of thinking these past few days. I posted above that I don't believe in things that aren't proven. I just realized how ridiculous of a statement that is. Not everything can be scientifically proven...granted. I believe that being filled with love and positive thinking is essential to living a full, happy life. No scientific test for that. There are some other things that fall into that category.

However, when it comes to the types of things we've been discussing in this thread, I still want to see proof. If one claims to be able to predict the future, levitate things, remote view, etc, I only ask one thing.

Just do what you say you can do. That's all. Do what you say you can do.

Why is that so hard for some to understand? Why, after all of this discussion, is no one able to point to a specific person who is ABLE to do the paranormal thing that they claim to do.

Intuition, BTW, is NOT paranormal. It's just taking your knowledge of the world and how people work, and applying it to the current situation. It's critical thinking, reasoning, and logic all rolled into one. It's about the most NORMAL thing in human nature.
Simone
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Quote:
On 2005-09-01 11:38, Kenn Capman wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-08-31 22:39, Simone wrote:

Ok, let's have a discussion on your terms since you choose not to answer what I wrote. I'm just not going to let you get away with not answering me after all you've written on here. So let's go:

Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science?

Do you believe in God?

Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe?

I believe in my intution, do you?

What does intuition mean to you?

I'm trying to have a discussion and to me it's important that you answer these questions so I know where you're coming from.


I have just read this topic again from the beginning and have found it to be a spirited, and for the most part, well thought out debate.

With some notable exceptions.

Attempting to monopolize a topic to satisfy a personal agenda is, at best, in poor taste, and more likely, bad etiquette.


You're not really talking about me are you? If you are, then please explain how I am trying to "monopolize" the topic to "satisfy" my "personal agenda"?

Did you really read everything? I invite you to read some of Nicholas Johnson's comments here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&141

"Well-thought out debate?" Are you serious? You're one of them or wouldn't have written that. They have done, in this, and other posts, mad fun, disrespected, and suggested I was (and readers in general) a fake, con-artist, insensitive liar who doesn't care about people. Some of the suggestions these guys have made on the subject have been highly offensive to me. "Well thought-out debate"? I give up!!!
beyrevra
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Courage Simone, You are not alone , my snake and me are with you! Smile
Image
JohnLamberti
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Simone,
Please point out, specifically, where I or anyone else personally insulted you or accused you of being a fraud. I don't remember directing any comments toward you at all until you called me annoying.

There is a record...please point out the posts that you found offensive...not the whole thread. Just one post will be fine. I will be HAPPY to apologize. Seriously!

What do you mean by "one of them?" Why do people like me threaten you so? I'm sorry, I'm just not a threatening guy Smile I disagree with you, yes. But I make no judgements about you as a human being.

Thank you.
-John
Josho
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On 2005-08-31 21:30, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
Fair enough, but on the other side of the coin: does the scenario I laid out seem unlikely, if one accepts the basic premise of the gift existing in that scenario?

Steve


Steve,

I'd say that the scenario you laid out is perfectly plausible, though not "likely" in the sense that likely implies that the odds are in favor of events unfolding just as described. Given that such a small percentage of the population selects mentalism as a hobby or a profession, I still don't think it's likely...but it's certainly reasonable.

--Josh
NJJ
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Psy·chic (skk)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, affecting, or influenced by the human mind or psyche; mental.
2. Capable of extraordinary mental processes, such as extrasensory perception and mental telepathy.
3. Of or relating to such mental processes.

The last two definitions are clearly paranormal in nature but the first defitiniton could include simone's intuition . But I would think that "intuition" would be an easier to understand description then "psychic" for most people.

Simone - At which point were you called a "a fake, con-artist, insensitive liar"?
Simone
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I want to make a correction. I don't want to be unfair, or a real b * t c h.

I read everything again, including the "corporate fortune telling" thread (link above) and I discovered where I got frustrated. Tim Ellis made some suggestions that I found offensive, like implying that readers should consider the sitter's feelings (meaning me) as if I didn't, etc. Nicholas sort of came to his defense and at that point I started to get annoyed with him. But to be fair, his posts have not been as horrible as I've announced, much less for John. So even though I don't agree with you guys, I apologize for jumping to conclusions about your remarks. Honestly, I got confused with all the posts I've read recently and really started blending Tim's couple of uninformed comments with all the skeptic's comments and so on. So because of that, I'm going to step away from this particular conversation and let you guys talk it out. I don't want to bring in any more of my (however misdirected) annoyance to it.
hkwiles
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Simone..the longer you frequent the Café the more you will get used to these kind of debates...Enjoy !!

Howard
JohnLamberti
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Quote:
On 2005-09-01 18:25, Simone wrote:
I want to make a correction. I don't want to be unfair, or a real b * t c h.

I read everything again, including the "corporate fortune telling" thread (link above) and I discovered where I got frustrated. Tim Ellis made some suggestions that I found offensive, like implying that readers should consider the sitter's feelings (meaning me) as if I didn't, etc. Nicholas sort of came to his defense and at that point I started to get annoyed with him. But to be fair, his posts have not been as horrible as I've announced, much less for John. So even though I don't agree with you guys, I apologize for jumping to conclusions about your remarks. Honestly, I got confused with all the posts I've read recently and really started blending Tim's couple of uninformed comments with all the skeptic's comments and so on. So because of that, I'm going to step away from this particular conversation and let you guys talk it out. I don't want to bring in any more of my (however misdirected) annoyance to it.


Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sure you're a very nice person, and it was big of you to admit you had erred. Thank you Smile
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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>"Steve,

I'd say that the scenario you laid out is perfectly plausible, though not "likely" in the sense that likely implies that the odds are in favor of events unfolding just as described. Given that such a small percentage of the population selects mentalism as a hobby or a profession, I still don't think it's likely...but it's certainly reasonable.

--Josh"

Fair enough, John. Smile

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
NJJ
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Reasons why a paranormal psychic might come to the Café as suggested on this thread.

1) Chance - They just happen to like mentalism.
2) The Geller Excuse - They want to be able to fake their abilities in case they have an off night
3) Intellectual Connection - Their interest in the paranormal leads to an interest in magic.
4) Fraud - They don't have any power and want techniques to be able to fake it.

All are believable reasons to me. Are there any I have missed?
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