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jimtron
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As I said above, I agree that people should have the freedom to believe whatever they want. Yes, it is an anatomical fact that a spike or pair of scissors can be jammed into a nostril in a way that looks impossible or injurious, but is actually harmless (IF you know what you're doing; obviously this is potentially extremely dangerous). You can see an illustration of the anatomical situation here if you like. This is also known as "blockhead" I think and has been discussed here at the Café quite a bit.

As I've said here before, I believe that the vast majority of readers are well-intentioned. I don't see a big crime in what you described either. But, if most readers are "bad" as you say, then I guess I'm right to be skeptical, and people should be careful and cautious when going for a reading. I don't think there's anything wrong with psychotherapy, but I don't understand why a psychotherapist would call themselves a psychic reader.

I am all for empowering people. In my opinion, however, encouraging belief in fictional powers (I'm not saying psychic powers are fictional) is the antithesis of empowerment. To me, it's empowering to have knowledge and information and practical tools to get things done. There was another thread here where some people said it was ok to deceive sitters (by faking psychic powers) as long as it was well-intentioned and for their own good. I disagree; I don't think that's empowering.

Maybe "spritual counseling" is more accurate than "psychic reader." I think that most people equate the term "psychic" with clairvoyance or other paranormal powers.

Thanks for your responses Rick.

-Jim
NJJ
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Jim - Blockhead is not harmless to do on other people. It requires that you feel your way around through your face and requires an "easing" trial and error over many attempts before you can do this on yourself. Doing this on other people with a pair of scissors, its dangerous. John of God is dangerous.
jimtron
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Agreed. That's why I said "IF you know what you're doing; obviously this is potentially extremely dangerous" in the above post.

I do think John of God is endangering people when he does this; my (muddled) point was that it's not a miracle or an example of supernatural powers when John of God jams scissors into someone's nose. Reckless and pointless; yes.
Tom Cutts
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If the scissors are pointless they might be harmless.
jimtron
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Ahhh, that's a larf.
NJJ
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Hehehe.

Seriously though, no one can safely jam anything into anyone's nostrils regardless of how many times they have done it. It is the victim who needs the experience. Even when a doctor does it they use the prod and poke technique.

There is no safe way to jam scissors in someone elses nose.
Thoughtreader
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Nicholas,

In answer to your question Yes, there are some psychics who also work on stage as psychic entertainers. However, the main point that seems to be missed is that a psychic reading is not and never shall be a form of entertainment. A psychic reading is about the person seeing the reader and is NOT about the reader. It is NOT there as a form of entertainment and does not require nor should it use a bunch of tricks to fool the sitter. It has nothing to do with billet switches, nor even cold reading and handing out generalities. A reading is about the connection, the bond that is established between sitter and reader and the exchange that takes place and the focus is all on the sitter, not the reader.

A psychic entertainer on the other hand is PERFORMING theatre and as such will embellish what they are doing on stage as it is theatre and so has to be larger than life. Exchanges such as the ones in here are for psychic entertainers, mentalists and magicians, NOT readers.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat
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http://www.mindguy.com
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NJJ
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Paul - What about John Edwards? is that a psyhic reading for entertainment?
John Nesbit
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Quote:
On 2005-08-30 18:17, Thoughtreader wrote:
Nicholas,

In answer to your question Yes, there are some psychics who also work on stage as psychic entertainers. However, the main point that seems to be missed is that a psychic reading is not and never shall be a form of entertainment. A psychic reading is about the person seeing the reader and is NOT about the reader. It is NOT there as a form of entertainment and does not require nor should it use a bunch of tricks to fool the sitter. It has nothing to do with billet switches, nor even cold reading and handing out generalities. A reading is about the connection, the bond that is established between sitter and reader and the exchange that takes place and the focus is all on the sitter, not the reader.

A psychic entertainer on the other hand is PERFORMING theatre and as such will embellish what they are doing on stage as it is theatre and so has to be larger than life. Exchanges such as the ones in here are for psychic entertainers, mentalists and magicians, NOT readers.

PSIncerely Yours,
Paul Alberstat

So true ! I just wanted this to be posted twice. Thanks for the perspective Paul. Long overdue and much needed.
JohnLamberti
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If "a psychic reading is not and never shall be a form of entertainment", why is it that most psychic hotlines and "over-the-web" readers advertise their services "For entertainment purposes only." ? Or is that just a standard disclaimer? Or am I confusing things?
NJJ
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It is pretty entertaining to watch....
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2005-08-30 23:16, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:
Paul - What about John Edwards? is that a psyhic reading for entertainment?

Neither, John Edwards was more like a running for Vice President of The U.S.

Perhaps you mean John Edward... which leads to the classic line when one gets bad press, "At least they spelled my name right."

A very common mistake but if we are going to call someone into question, the least we can do is get their name right.

If you slow the credits of Crossing Over down you will see there the same disclaimer of "for entertainment purposes only". Translation of this line is "fake reading". I would think by now the ernest skeptics would be able to make a distinction between the spectacle type TV and 1-900 hot line performances and a real one on one, face to face reader. If not reread Paul's post.

Tom
NJJ
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What, specifically, is the difference between a "real" face to face reading and a "fake" 1900 number/ TV show?

I've listened to and read the readings of over 50 different of psychics and whilst each has their own style and techniques (some using equipment, some channeling the dead, some channeling angels) they all use similar presentation of question and answer combining demonstrations to prove them abilities (I know these things about you) and advice/predictions (this will happen to you in the future.)

This is not to suggest that because these private readers have factors in similar with "fake" readers that they must also be fake but surely it is not as simple as to say "a distinction between the spectacle type TV and 1-900 hot-line performances and a real one on one, face to face reader."

John Edward and many of his fans would claim he is real and focusing on the sitter?

Could someone tell me more about the bond that occurs in these private sessions that do not occur in 1900 numbers and television?
Tom Cutts
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One is in person with all benefits and features made available by personal interaction and the intimacy of one on one same. The others are not. Not every face to face psychic will be good enough to interact with you. These are the things one must find out for themselves. Eventually you are going to need to get out there and do some field research. Not everything can be handed to you over the internet.

PS: I thought Angels were nice dead people. Smile

Cheers,

Tom
Josho
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Quote:
On 2005-08-28 10:28, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
Quote:
If a person had a REAL ability, I don't see why they would be interested in a forum where the main topic is how to FAKE having that ability.

Oh, I dunno...I could imagine a real vampire that enjoyed Chris Lee 'Dracula' movies. Smile

Stop being so assumptive on what people might or might not be interested in; the human mindset is a flexible proposition.

Steve


Steve,

I understand that the human mindset is a flexible proposition.

I suspect, though, that you've missed my point. But let's take your vampire example.

If I was a real vampire, with the ability to suck blood from innocent victims through my fangs and live forever, how likely would I be to invest my time and attention learning which fake fangs are the best, which fake blood looks most like real blood, and how to apply make-up so that it looks like I've got a deathly pallor?

Similarly, if I could read the contents of sealed envelopes with my fingers, what would compel me to spend time learning about the best way to gimmick envelopes so that I could appear to read their contents?

I grant you that there could certainly be circumstances under which I might want to know such information.

Magicians are who we are, to a great extent, because we enjoy PERFORMING magic. Certainly there are those who just enjoy watching or studying without performing, but, by and large, we're performers. A brief perusal of the majority of threads on the Café are about PERFORMING magic.

True psychics, if they exist, are people with a given talent. That given talent has nothing whatsoever to do with performing. If psychic ability is a gift, then there is no reason to presume that people who possess this gift are any more likely to want to be performers than are the rest of the population...the population that lists public speaking as its Number One fear and death as their Number Two fear.

Do you have any particular reason to believe that true psychics would have an innate desire to perform?

--Josh
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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Quote:
Do you have any particular reason to believe that true psychics would have an innate desire to perform?

Do you have any particular reason to believe that some would not and, if so, would that constitute a universal 'truth' for all psychics?

Steve


Posted: Aug 31, 2005 6:55pm
---------------------------------------------
Let me qualify further.
Your reasoning on why a real psychic would not be interested in magic is based on pure logic (which I can respect), but people on the whole do not operate by pure logic.

Just because a man owns an apple orchard does not prevent him from liking oranges.

Let me offer a theoretical case study:

Assume a man has a psychic gift for precognitive 'flashes' and dreams. Let us say these 'insights' have no 'red flags' to differentiate them from normal dreams and daydream thoughts; confirmation only comes when the events transpire. As such, the gift is impractical.

Let us also say this man was raised on monster movies and comic books, and so has an affinity with the fantastic.

He becomes a magician...soon a mentalist. He does not call himself a psychic, though he knows himself to be one, because his gift is impractical for performance use.

He is fascinated with serious PSI studies, as well as clever deception methods.

Assuming he is a real psychic, do the other elements of his life seem unlikely?

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Simone
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Nick and John, you guys are so annoying. It's clear to me that you're not trying to "understand" anything, but using it as an excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at. Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science? Do you believe in God? Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe? Life is not black and white. I believe in my intution, do you? What does intuition mean to you?
Josho
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 18:03, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
Quote:
Do you have any particular reason to believe that true psychics would have an innate desire to perform?

Do you have any particular reason to believe that some would not and, if so, would that constitute a universal 'truth' for all psychics?


This is why I specified "innate." The point in my last post (which I apparently obfuscated) was this:

A. IF a minute percentage of the general public is interested in performing mentalism, AND:
B. IF a minute percentage of the general public has true psychic abilities, AND:
C. IF there is no correlation between true psychic ability and a desire to perform mentalism, THEN:
D. Only a minute percentage of true psychics would be interested in performing mentalism, AND:
E. Only a minute percentage of a minute percentage of the general population will be true psychics who are interested in performing mentalism.

One might argue that having true psychic abilities somehow automatically creates a desire to show these abilities off (or even PRETEND to show them off through the techniques of subterfuge that comprise the study of mentalism). However, I'd guess that it is just as likely to automatically create, instead, crippling depression, psychosis, and a sense of isolation.

I've never represented anything I've said as a universal truth for all psychics; I have, though, expressed doubt that a person with a real talent is going to want to invest time learning how to fake that talent. If I can really make it snowstorm around me, I doubt I'd spend much time or effort learning how to do the same thing with the aid of an $800 electronic device that had to be hidden under my jacket and snaked up my sleeve. Unless, perhaps, I was engineering a sucker bet with a bunch of cocky magicians.

--Josh
NJJ
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Quote:
On 2005-08-31 19:00, Simone wrote:
Nick and John, you guys are so annoying. It's clear to me that you're not trying to "understand" anything, but using it as an excuse to complain, debunk, shoot down, incriminate, make fun of, and laugh at. Do you guys believe in anything that is not totally proven by selective science? Do you believe in God? Did you believe in Santa when you were kids and just hated having been fooled all those years when you found out? Or are you this bitter because you were never given a chance to believe? Life is not black and white. I believe in my intution, do you? What does intuition mean to you?


I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

I am trying to have a discussion here with people who have a different view of the world, a view that I often find it very hard to understand and that I hope to better understand through questioning.
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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Fair enough, but on the other side of the coin: does the scenario I laid out seem unlikely, if one accepts the basic premise of the gift existing in that scenario?

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
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